Can Nien Numb removed multiple stress given by a single effec if his trigger is active? E.g. Panicked Pilot

Posted awhile back and it devolved into an argument. Basically it comes down to whether or not stress are dealt individually like damage are ( "When a ship suffers damage, that damage is suffered one at a time." RR Damage)

Has there been any official ruling? Surely it happened in the Phoenix open at some point.

this again?

i'm pretty sure most people agree he can get rid of any number of stress. it's still not clear RAW, though.

no official rulings as far as i know.

47 minutes ago, meffo said:

this again?

i'm pretty sure most people agree he can get rid of any number of stress. it's still not clear RAW, though.

no official rulings as far as i know.

Do people agree? I've seen it go both ways.

Regardless of that answer, to settle disputes at local tourneys, I'd rather be able to say it's been ruled officially or failing that, how its was ruled for a high level tournament.

2 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Do people agree? I've seen it go both ways.

 Regardless of that answer, to settle disputes at local tourneys, I'd rather be able to say it's been ruled officially or failing that, how its was ruled for a high level tournament.

still not clear in that case. at least as far as i know. people go both ways, yes, even the people who play him. ask your TO or make an agreement with whomever you're playing against before the game starts.

In 1st Edition, stress tokens were applied one at a time, so Nien could indeed remove as many as he liked (provided all other conditions were met, of course). 2nd Edition neither has that rule, nor a rule that states the opposite, leaving us a little in the lurch.

As @meffo says, you almost need to check this event by event or game by game until FFG graces us with a ruling on the matter.

16 hours ago, meffo said:

ask your TO

I've asked myself several times, still don't know!

I've been ruling that he can for the league I run, I just don't have anything solid to back it up.

2 hours ago, prauxim said:

I've asked myself several times, still don't know!

I've been ruling that he can for the league I run, I just don't have anything solid to back it up.

Neither do we. We are trying to tell you there is no official ruling, so go with what the card says and your best understanding of the English language and logic.

If a ship receives 2 stress tokens, did it receive a stress token?

Just now, Tvboy said:

Neither do we. We are trying to tell you there is no official ruling

Got that thanks. As mentioned in the OP, I'm wondering if and how it was ruled for the Phoenix open. Even if there is no answer this thread increases visibility of the ambiguity to FFG, not sure why people are getting salty.

4 hours ago, prauxim said:

Got that thanks. As mentioned in the OP, I'm wondering if and how it was ruled for the Phoenix open. Even if there is no answer this thread increases visibility of the ambiguity to FFG, not sure why people are getting salty.

Floor rulings at tournaments are not official and should not be used to argue for one ruling over another. Judges are human beings and they make mistakes when they are asked to make rulings on the spot with very little time to look over all the relevant rules documents. I was just told that a judge at the Phoenix Open ruled that Tavson can only trigger his ability once per attack and that is blatantly incorrect.

If you are flying Nien or against Nien, I encourage you to discuss with your opponent beforehand of your interpretation of the text so you can find a consensus with them at the start before it actually comes up. If you are bringing Nien to a tournament or a league, get a ruling from the Marshall or TO before the event starts. If they won't give you a ruling, then they are not doing their job as an event leader.

15 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Floor rulings at tournaments are not official and should not be used to argue for one ruling over another. Judges are human beings and they make mistakes when they are asked to make rulings on the spot with very little time to look over all the relevant rules documents. I was just told that a judge at the Phoenix Open ruled that Tavson can only trigger his ability once per attack and that is blatantly incorrect.

If you are flying Nien or against Nien, I encourage you to discuss with your opponent beforehand of your interpretation of the text so you can find a consensus with them at the start before it actually comes up. If you are bringing Nien to a tournament or a league, get a ruling from the Marshall or TO before the event starts. If they won't give you a ruling, then they are not doing their job as an event leader.

He is the TO, which is why he was hoping for something more solid

Try reading the thread

9 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

He is the TO, which is why he was hoping for something more solid

Try reading the thread

On 2/1/2019 at 7:48 AM, prauxim said:

I've asked myself several times, still don't know!

I've been ruling that he can for the league I run, I just don't have anything solid to back it up.

I interpreted the above text as "I asked the TO myself and they didn't answer." Didn't realize it was a joke.

If OP is the TO, then OP gets to make the ruling. Not every rules question you get as TO is going to have a specific FAQ entry for it and FFG's rules reference is still incomplete in several areas (like whether Dalan can use his ability if he has full shields), so you just have to use your best judgment based on how you read the text and understand the English language. That is the responsibility of a TO.

Again I will ask you, if Nien Numb receives 2 stress tokens, did he receive a stress token?

47 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Again I will ask you, if Nien Numb receives 2 stress tokens, did he receive a stress token?

it's not that simple

he did. and he gets to remove that token. his ability doesn't say that or those tokens, just that token.

there is a restriction in the golden rules referred to as the "once per opportunity"-rule.

if the two stress tokens were received at the same time and nien gets to remove that token, what does that mean? he removes one token or both?

if both stress are received individually, it's pretty clear. since "that token" is singularis, the token is removed. his ability can then proc a second time when the second stress token is received.

for reference:
"After you gain a stress token, if there is an enemy ship in your (front arc) at range 0-1, you may remove that stress token." (nien nunb)
"After another friendly ship at range 0-3 defends, if it is destroyed, the attacker gains 2 stress tokens." (admiral sloane)
"Gain 2 stress tokens. Then repair this card" (panicked pilot)

my opinion is that the effects from panicked pilot or admiral sloane are singular effects that happen without any timing windows for other effects to interrupt them, meaning both of the stress tokens are received at the same time. this restricts nien nunbs ability per the once per opportunity rule. his ability triggers, since he's received a stress - and that stress token is removed. meaning he would still have a stress left.

that's just my opinion, though. i know plenty of people disagrees with this, including judges and TOs.

😆

The "Once per opportunity" rule would make me think that you can remove only one stress token.

But as far as I can remember, during XWing 1.0 it was possible to remove more than one stress token via Niens ability.

My view on it is that if it was meant to be one, it would say one.

2 minutes ago, benlane17 said:

My view on it is that if it was meant to be one, it would say one.

I agree with this interpretation. Nien doesn't say "remove one stress token," he says "remove that stress token." My opinion is that this should be interpreted to apply to any and all stress tokens as they are received, regardless of the number of stress tokens being given out. So if Nien pulls a Panicked Pilot and receives two stress at once, his ability activates once and removes both stress tokens.

While it's not a direct correlation, or always accurate, comparing Nein Nunb and Jek Porkins can give you enough of a case for precedent, currently, as anything else.

The only real difference is in the manner in which the stress is shed.

Porkins Rolls.

Nein doesn't.

My experience, both during local events and playing Fly Casual has been that every stress token is a separate "opportunity" meaning, Porkins rolls for each stress from Sloane/Panicked Pilot, therefore, as long as the other conditions are met, Nein should remove each one as well.

1 hour ago, Damo1701 said:

While it's not a direct correlation, or always accurate, comparing Nein Nunb and Jek Porkins can give you enough of a case for precedent, currently, as anything else.

The only real difference is in the manner in which the stress is shed.

Porkins Rolls.

Nein doesn't.

My experience, both during local events and playing Fly Casual has been that every stress token is a separate "opportunity" meaning, Porkins rolls for each stress from Sloane/Panicked Pilot, therefore, as long as the other conditions are met, Nein should remove each one as well.

porkins shouldn't get to roll more than once from panicked pilot or sloane, since RAW he receives both stress at the same time.

i get that you play as if both tokens are received individually, but there is no support for that approach in the rules.

receiving two stress from panicked pilot or sloane are single effects. breaking them up into two or more opportunities or timing windows to trigger other effects has no support in the rules what so ever.

2 hours ago, Maui. said:

I agree with this interpretation. Nien doesn't say "remove one stress token," he says "remove that stress token." My opinion is that this should be interpreted to apply to any and all stress tokens as they are received, regardless of the number of stress tokens being given out. So if Nien pulls a Panicked Pilot and receives two stress at once, his ability activates once and removes both stress tokens.

"remove that stress token ." - his card doesn't say those tokens.

now i'm sure everyone will agree his ability triggers when he receives stress. two tokens certainly fulfill the "after you gain a stress token" requirement. that's a stress token. that same token is referenced later on in the card text and lets nien "remove that stress token.", ie. the one described as the requirement for his ability to trigger.

as per the once per opportunity rule, that's it. he removes one stress token and is left with the other one.

3 hours ago, Schu81 said:

The "Once per opportunity" rule would make me think that you can remove only one stress token.

But as far as I can remember, during XWing 1.0 it was possible to remove more than one stress token via Niens ability.

Each token presented a separate opportunity, in 1e, as there's no specific timing on Nien, so he treats each gain of a token separately.

Or to put it another way, neither token you receive cares that you received another concurrently. They're each 'a stress token' you're receiving, so you deal with each accordingly.

There's no formal place int he rules calling out each token as a distinct opportunity, and perhaps there should be, but absent any other precedent, given that the ability is the same as in 1e, I'd expect the FAQ answer to be the same as well.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

"remove that stress token ." - his card doesn't say those tokens.

If Nien did say "those" tokens, would you then insist that he cannot remove only one stress token?

Quote

now i'm sure everyone will agree his ability triggers when he receives stress. two tokens certainly fulfill the "after you gain a stress token" requirement. that's a stress token. that same token is referenced later on in the card text and lets nien "remove that stress token.", ie. the one described as the requirement for his ability to trigger.

If Nien gains two stress tokens simultaneously, which of them triggers his ability? It must necessarily be both, or else they didn't arrive simultaneously. Therefore both qualify as 'that' token which is to be removed.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Each token presented a separate opportunity, in 1e, as there's no specific timing on Nien, so he treats each gain of a token separately.

Or to put it another way, neither token you receive cares that you received another concurrently. They're each 'a stress token' you're receiving, so you deal with each accordingly.

There's no formal place int he rules calling out  each token as a distinct opportunity, and perhaps there should be, but absent any other precedent, given that the ability is the same as in 1e, I'd expect the FAQ answer to be the same as well.

excepy nien has a very specific timing - "after you gain a stress token".

or to put it another way, dealing with both tokens separately is simply disregarding the once per opportunity rule completely.

there is not an absense of rules and other abilities or effects that resolve as they are written rather than pausing mid effect to check for new triggers. and there is no text indicating anything other than what's on the cards should happen. i don't believe "because first edition" makes for a very compelling argument.

i do agree that an faq or update to the RR will probably say the tokens are received one at a time. the effect of gaining two tokens is not unique. just look at spacetug tractor array for example.

21 minutes ago, Maui. said:

If Nien did say "those" tokens, would you then insist that he cannot remove only one stress token?

If Nien gains two stress tokens simultaneously, which of them triggers his ability? It must necessarily be both, or else they didn't arrive simultaneously. Therefore both qualify as 'that' token which is to be removed.

nope, but if he said "that stress" or even better "that or those stress tokens", it'd be pretty clear.

now we're getting somewhere. so you're saying "that token" is plural, even though token is the definitely the singular form?

Just now, meffo said:

nope, but if he said "that stress" or even better "that or those stress tokens", it'd be pretty clear.

now we're getting somewhere. so you're saying "that token" is plural, even though token is the definitely the singular form?

Well, I think the tokens are received individually, and if that's the case there's really no argument about Nien.

But if they are received simultaneously, what I'm saying is that if multiple tokens meet the criteria, and they are all indistinguishable from one another, then they should all be removed.

10 minutes ago, meffo said:

No w we're getting somewhere.

Quite the contrary. You're going around in circles arguing two sides of a point that cannot be either proven or disproven until FFG answers the question.

Until then, you might as well be discussing quantum physics with a chimp than arguing with each other