Friday night I ran

Mauler with Trick shot

Rudor with Hull upgrade and Juke

Seyn with Marksmanship and Shield upgrade

Vader with Afterburner , collision detector, Proton rockets and Hate.

Nasty combination

They're great wingmates for Vader and/or Stele

Double x1 Squad (197)
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced x1	65
Hate	3
Proton Rockets	7
Afterburners	6
Ship Total: 81
Half Points: 41 Threshold: 3
 	
Maarek Stele — TIE Advanced x1	46
Crack Shot	1
Fire-Control System	2
Proton Rockets	7
Ship Total: 56
Half Points: 28 Threshold: 3
 	
Gideon Hask — TIE/ln Fighter	30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 2
 	
“Wampa” — TIE/ln Fighter	30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 2

Really screw up target priority.

Try something like this.

8 minutes ago, Varyag said:

Try something like this.

Academy Pilot — TIE/ln Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
Half Points: 12 Threshold: 2
Academy Pilot — TIE/ln Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
Half Points: 12 Threshold: 2
Academy Pilot — TIE/ln Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
Half Points: 12 Threshold: 2
Academy Pilot — TIE/ln Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
Half Points: 12 Threshold: 2
Academy Pilot — TIE/ln Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
Half Points: 12 Threshold: 2
Academy Pilot — TIE/ln Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
Half Points: 12 Threshold: 2
Colonel Jendon — Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle	46
Ion Cannon	5
Admiral Sloane	10
Ship Total: 61
Half Points: 31 Threshold: 5

Jendon's pilot ability doesn't do anything for those TIEs. It only changes the range of acquiring locks, it doesn't actually grant locks.

I think I'd do this to get the TIE/LN in the mix.

Captain Rex (32)

“Zeb” Orrelios (TIE Fighter) (26)

Sabine Wren (TIE Fighter) (30)

Ezra Bridger (TIE Fighter) (32)
Supernatural Reflexes (8)

Outer Rim Smuggler (69)
Leia Organa (2)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

2 hours ago, XPav said:

I think I'd do this to get the TIE/LN in the mix.

Captain Rex (32)

“Zeb” Orrelios (TIE Fighter) (26)

Sabine Wren (TIE Fighter) (30)

Ezra Bridger (TIE Fighter) (32)
Supernatural Reflexes (8)

Outer Rim Smuggler (69)
Leia Organa (2)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

I just threw up in my mouth a little....

2 hours ago, Dasharr said:

Jendon's pilot ability doesn't do anything for those TIEs. It only changes the range of acquiring locks, it doesn't actually grant locks.

Agreed, @Varyag, best to run a base initiative Lambda and maybe think of a different loadout; running these low Is mean you want to spend all your points well 😉

But I love the idea of old school TIEs and a Lambda support ship!

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

I just threw up in my mouth a little....

Perfect! I'll add it to the art on the outside of the TIE.

I've tried Sloane swarms, and found Sloane + Acadamies lacking. Maybe it's weaknesses in my flying, but with all the current Sloane carrier options, it's hard to avoid the opponent just quickly nuking Sloane. Then you just have Academies left, and by themselves they're weak (there's a reason Howlrunner+6 swarms have always been more successful than packing in 8 Academies - TIE/lns need something to give them extra muscle).

After the recent discussions about Ruthless I've been considering this:

TIE/ln Fighter - •“Wampa” - 30
•“Wampa” - Black Eleven (30)

TIE/ln Fighter - Black Squadron Ace - 27
Black Squadron Ace - (26)
Ruthless (1)

TIE/ln Fighter - Black Squadron Ace - 27
Black Squadron Ace - (26)
Ruthless (1)

TIE/ln Fighter - Black Squadron Ace - 27
Black Squadron Ace - (26)
Ruthless (1)

TIE/ln Fighter - Black Squadron Ace - 27
Black Squadron Ace - (26)
Ruthless (1)

Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle - Omicron Group Pilot - 57
Omicron Group Pilot - (43)
Jamming Beam (0)
•Admiral Sloane (10)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Total: 195/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

1 hour ago, Dasharr said:

I've tried Sloane swarms, and found Sloane + Acadamies lacking. Maybe it's weaknesses in my flying, but with all the current Sloane carrier options, it's hard to avoid the opponent just quickly nuking Sloane. Then you just have Academies left, and by themselves they're weak (there's a reason Howlrunner+6 swarms have always been more successful than packing in 8 Academies - TIE/lns need something to give them extra muscle).

Have you tried Captain Feroph? I've always found him Irksomely tough.

It's slightly more expensive, but it also puts her on a chassis with the same initiative as Black Squadron Aces, letting you chop and change firing order - and, critically, meaning you can load the collateral splash damage from your entire squad onto one squad member before they die if you're prepared to kill off one of your own models.

Ruthless + Sloane is a nasty combination since it makes the self-damage into a nasty trap for your opponent: Go on, it's only got 1 hit point left! I dare you! Shoot at it! What's the worst that could happen?

• Captain Feroph
  • Ruthless
  • Admiral Sloane
  • Minister Tua
• Black Squadron Ace x 5
  • Ruthless

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Have you tried Captain Feroph? I've always found him Irksomely tough.

It's slightly more expensive, but it also puts her on a chassis with the same initiative as Black Squadron Aces, letting you chop and change firing order - and, critically, meaning you can load the collateral splash damage from your entire squad onto one squad member before they die if you're prepared to kill off one of your own models.

Ruthless + Sloane is a nasty combination since it makes the self-damage into a nasty trap for your opponent: Go on, it's only got 1 hit point left! I dare you! Shoot at it! What's the worst that could happen?

• Captain Feroph
  • Ruthless
  • Admiral Sloane
  • Minister Tua
• Black Squadron Ace x 5
  • Ruthless

That looks like a deadly squad alright. I was thinking in terms of the Lambda for native reinforce and more shields, plus Wampa at the same initiative for self-bumping to control pace in the opening turns.

I don't understand what the problem is with the Tie Fighter. I use them all the time. Most of the time I use them in a "mini-swarm" of about 4-5 with a heavy hitter. This HH is either an ace or a tough ship. They have been great this way.

I think too many people think the only way to fly Tie Fighters is as a Tie Formation. That is a really boring and taxing way to play, in my mind. For one thing, Tie Fighters are absolutely fine WITHOUT Howlrunner. You don't have to take her to make them work. You also don't have to go with all Tie Fighters, either.

I have no idea about the tournament scene as I don't do them, but I play against locals that are testing their tournament lists. I usually beat them.

Even just a simple Academy Pilot thrown into a list as a blocker can work aces. This is especially good vs. a large based ship. Get a Tie Fighter going roughly the same direction and in front of a large based ship and you can easily shoot that sucker down.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I don't understand what the problem is with the Tie Fighter. I use them all the time. Most of the time I use them in a "mini-swarm" of about 4-5 with a heavy hitter. This HH is either an ace or a tough ship. They have been great this way.

I think too many people think the only way to fly Tie Fighters is as a Tie Formation. That is a really boring and taxing way to play, in my mind. For one thing, Tie Fighters are absolutely fine WITHOUT Howlrunner. You don't have to take her to make them work. You also don't have to go with all Tie Fighters, either.

I have no idea about the tournament scene as I don't do them, but I play against locals that are testing their tournament lists. I usually beat them.

Even just a simple Academy Pilot thrown into a list as a blocker can work aces. This is especially good vs. a large based ship. Get a Tie Fighter going roughly the same direction and in front of a large based ship and you can easily shoot that sucker down.

Agreed. You canlook at the TIE/ln as a swarmer or blocker. It won't win in the end game, but in groups or as a blocker it can help boost your squad as a whole. Just takes practice to make it work.

14 hours ago, XPav said:

I think I'd do this to get the TIE/LN in the mix.

Captain Rex (32)

“Zeb” Orrelios (TIE Fighter) (26)

Sabine Wren (TIE Fighter) (30)

Ezra Bridger (TIE Fighter) (32)
Supernatural Reflexes (8)

Outer Rim Smuggler (69)
Leia Organa (2)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Annoyingly you are 2 points shy of dropping SNR on Ezra and upgrading to Lando. Of course you can drop Leia on Lando to fit him. Or switch out Zeb for a Z-95.

D*mnit... I kind of like it.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I don't understand what the problem is with the Tie Fighter. I use them all the time. Most of the time I use them in a "mini-swarm" of about 4-5 with a heavy hitter. This HH is either an ace or a tough ship. They have been great this way.

I think too many people think the only way to fly Tie Fighters is as a Tie Formation. That is a really boring and taxing way to play, in my mind. For one thing, Tie Fighters are absolutely fine WITHOUT Howlrunner. You don't have to take her to make them work. You also don't have to go with all Tie Fighters, either.

I have no idea about the tournament scene as I don't do them, but I play against locals that are testing their tournament lists. I usually beat them.

Even just a simple Academy Pilot thrown into a list as a blocker can work aces. This is especially good vs. a large based ship. Get a Tie Fighter going roughly the same direction and in front of a large based ship and you can easily shoot that sucker down.

Agreed. I think people just aren't running them because they still sort of have that 1.0 mindset that 2 attack dice are worthless. Yeah, maybe 1 or 2 attacks with 2 dice aren't great, but 3 or 4 starts to take its toll. That and the fact Swarms in general are sort of taxing to fly over a long tournament with 5-6 games to play. I remember way back in the 1.0 wave 4ish days that the most games you would ever play in a tournament is 4. Much easier to manage a large swarm when you are only playing that many games.

Not to mention that trajectory simulator shouldn't be as much of a bogey man lurking out there to kill your swarms.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I don't understand what the problem is with the Tie Fighter. I use them all the time. Most of the time I use them in a "mini-swarm" of about 4-5 with a heavy hitter. This HH is either an ace or a tough ship. They have been great this way.

50 minutes ago, impspy said:

Agreed. You canlook at the TIE/ln as a swarmer or blocker. It won't win in the end game, but in groups or as a blocker it can help boost your squad as a whole. Just takes practice to make it work.

I don't think I've seen Howl Swarms given enough time of day for anyone to even say "I am a half decent TIE swarm player and I flew one at X event went Y-Z and these were my favorable matchups and these were my unfavorable ones."

Seems like people just don't particularly care.

******* traj sim got more than tripled in price

That's how

Anyway, swarms aren't easy to fly. Each ship multiplies the amount of positioning you have to do and foresight you have to have, ESPECIALLY when these tiny ****s get ruined when they bump and have no mods with which to defender their puny, three-hull asses

They're never going to be hyper-popular unless they can trivially steamroll the competition. The only way to truly get them on the table is to like them enough to practice them

I'm not claiming to be a good swarm player, but I've found some matchups extremely bad:

1- Boba Fett. I've played against Marauder/Han Boba (pre-points change) with a TIE swarm and vice versa. The dice mods just smash the TIEs faster than they can deal damage because of those rerolls on offence and defence. Even when I was the Boba player it felt like the odds were stacked in my favour.

2- Luke (pilot). Even without Supernatural for superior arc-dodging, Luke is a real problem because 2-dice shots (especially unmodified) run a real risk of doing nothing but recharging Luke's Force so he gets defensive mods when he does need them. True, he can always blank out, but it's tough to win a damage race like that.

3- Norra. It's hard to not let her into range 1 of at least 1 TIE because of barrel roll, then she gets 1 evade plus the green die against every attack. A Y-Wing's hit points last a long time when you need a good attack vs a bad defence to do even 1 damage.

All 3 of these are even Hyperspace legal, although that version of Boba might not be seen much now.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

I don't think I've seen Howl Swarms given enough time of day for anyone to even say "I am a half decent TIE swarm player and I flew one at X event went Y-Z and these were my favorable matchups and these were my unfavorable ones."

Seems like people just don't particularly care.

Maybe there haven't been people flying Tie Swarms......but that isn't the end all be all for Tie Fighters. I don't know how people survive without a low PS blocker in their list. How else do you kill aces? Maybe that's why everyone thinks the Init bid is so important?

21 hours ago, Dasharr said:

I'm not claiming to be a good swarm player, but I've found some matchups extremely bad:

1- Boba Fett. I've played against Marauder/Han Boba (pre-points change) with a TIE swarm and vice versa. The dice mods just smash the TIEs faster than they can deal damage because of those rerolls on offence and defence. Even when I was the Boba player it felt like the odds were stacked in my favour.

2- Luke (pilot). Even without Supernatural for superior arc-dodging, Luke is a real problem because 2-dice shots (especially unmodified) run a real risk of doing nothing but recharging Luke's Force so he gets defensive mods when he does need them. True, he can always blank out, but it's tough to win a damage race like that.

3- Norra. It's hard to not let her into range 1 of at least 1 TIE because of barrel roll, then she gets 1 evade plus the green die against every attack. A Y-Wing's hit points last a long time when you need a good attack vs a bad defence to do even 1 damage.

All 3 of these are even Hyperspace legal, although that version of Boba might not be seen much now.

I think these are the real bugbears. Reinforce isn't so bad now it can only mitigate you down to a minimum of 1 damage, but versus-every-attack green dice modifiers that you can't eliminate by blocking are a real pain for TIE swarms, and whilst Crack Shot helps it's hard to line up bullseye shots en masse.

All of them get an average of 1 evade against every attack, without actions being involved. It's hard to burn down a target like that.

• Norra is the toughest, but I think probably the easiest to deal with as she doesn't by default have boost, even if you staple afterburners to her she's not exactly mobile, and whilst she's in invulnerability mode during a pass through a TIE swarm, she'll have trouble turning around to fly into it again - and more importantly, at range 2-3 she's pretty quick to kill.
• Fett is technically also reliant on range 1, but the firespray has a medium base and native white boost. He IS fast enough to hit the gas and close to rerolls-a-go-go range, and agility 2 with a focus at longer range is no easy kill, especially since he has more hit points than Norra.
• Luke....yeah. At long range it's 2 red dice versus 3 perma-focused green dice, so range 1 is the way to go (unlike the other two) but even then it can take a ridiculous number of shots to actually kill him. I have beaten him in two games with a Ruthless swarm, but let's just say none of the TIE fighter pilots were getting their deposits back afterwards...

I use TIE/lns ALOT. 90% of my games include at least 4 TIE/lns. I can confidently say that they are well balanced. If you made any TIE cheaper they would probably be too strong. The only one who I think could be cheaper could maybe be Iden, but then you would have to increase the cost of generics to avoid having an overpowered 8 TIE swarm. That's the big issue, if you reduce the cost of one, you can get broken levels of numbers.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

• Luke....yeah. At long range it's 2 red dice versus 3 perma-focused green dice, so range 1 is the way to go (unlike the other two) but even then it can take a ridiculous number of shots to actually kill him. I have beaten him in two games with a Ruthless swarm, but let's just say none of the TIE fighter pilots were getting their deposits back afterwards...

If you don't mind sharing your tactics, what was your rule of thumb with using Ruthless vs Luke? Did you use it at every opportunity to mod an attack, or only when it would make at least 2 hits or something? I would worry about taking damage to turn 0 hits to 1 when it could easily fail to hit anyway and the friendly damage would be wasted.

15 hours ago, Dasharr said:

If you don't mind sharing your tactics, what was your rule of thumb with using Ruthless vs Luke? Did you use it at every opportunity to mod an attack, or only when it would make at least 2 hits or something? I would worry about taking damage to turn 0 hits to 1 when it could easily fail to hit anyway and the friendly damage would be wasted.

Definitely. Unlike, say, predator or something, don't assume Ruthless should be used on every single shot. Saving it to 'dogpile' a ship you've blocked with the lucky kamikaze is often the best plan - as it means the target will have few or no tokens and you've probably got multiple close range shots, and hence multiple potential targets to take the self-damage on.

When to use it

• If it has a credible chance of turning an attack into a kill, anything is an option, up to and including fratricidal kills of ships which have already fired or which don't have a shot anyway. The second game I played went down to the wire, and the last shot of the game was Mauler Mithel blowing away his last wingman to add a fatal 3rd hit that Luke couldn't dodge whatever he rolled.
• If it turns 2 hits into 3 (a range 1 shot), it's a no-brainer.
• If it turns 1 hit into 2, it's probably worth it. I would only really hesitate if there is no convenient undamaged friendly TIE, or the target is one which can realistically generate 2 evades (a focus/evade phantom, focused a-wing, protectorate, or a ship with a reinforce token, and even then, if the existing hit is a critical, I would probably do so, because getting a critical through is much more valuable than 'just' a normal hit (Maarek Stele with Ruthless paired with an Academy swarm is very tasty for this reason)
• If it turns 0 hits into 1, I would only consider it if I can be confident it's going to hurt the target more than me - meaning the target is unlikely to evade (agility 1 with no remaining green tokens or agility 0) so I'm confident I'm keeping level pegging with damage done, and/or a hull breach so the card I get is face-down and the card they get is face-up (which is what happened to Wedge in one of my games). I certainly wouldn't trade a half-point-hit for it.

Who to use it on

• Normally, your first choice is an undamaged TIE, followed by a damaged TIE (giving up half points) followed by a half-pointed TIE (killing it). However:
  • You (obviously!) want to avoid killing a ship which hasn't fired yet, or damaging a ship which is likely to be shot at before it shoots. Having as much as possible of your squad be the same initiative is useful here, since all your attacks happen at the same time.
  • Damaged TIE fighters often switch to blocking, evading or rolling and trying for a 'safe' bump. This is extra valuable in a same-initiative ruthless swarm, since a 'dead' TIE is only removed after the entire squad has fired. Theoretically, you can fire your entire squad at the poor chump he's blocked, stacking 5-6 damage cards onto the already damaged TIE and having it - and hopefully their blockee - simultaneously explode in a shower of overkill.
  • Remember that all that matters is that the self-damage target be at range 1 of the attack target. They don't have to be between you and the target, and for that matter don't have to be in your arc of fire at all. You'll be surprised how much you can spread out the damage when in close if you're trying to do so.
  • A word of warning. Ruthless is a great ability, whose positive effect is incredibly powerful for the talent's cost, and is really suited for TIE swarms which want to be swirling round you at range 1 anyway. It can, however, screw you over if you're looking at Inferno Squadron across the board, because self-damaging your squad enables both Gideon Hask and (much more importantly) Del Meeko's abilities. Getting everyone at the same initiative so you can pick a single friendly TIE and blow it to pieces with your entire squad will do you more good (weird as that sounds) than spattering cosmetic damage around the squad without seriously damaging any single ship, because giving your opponent range-2-discount-Serissu in a faction which already tends to have more green dice than you is a bloody stupid plan at best.

On 1/31/2019 at 3:23 PM, clanofwolves said:

So, seems FFG wanted to get/keep more of the old-school, classic SW ships on the table with X-wings doing solid (Wedge and a bit 'o Luke), B-Wings getting an assist, A-Wings getting an assist, Y-Wings getting an assist, TIE Interceptors doing solid (OK, Soontir only), Advanced getting an assist (OK, Vader only), but it seems the TIE/LN "which is one of the two most iconic space ships of the SW universe" hasn't been seen much use before the price adjustment and didn't get any assistance at all.

What's up FFG?

Trajectory simulator, Punishers and pro torps went up. That's as good as a price drop.

53 minutes ago, Porkchop Express said:

Trajectory simulator, Punishers and pro torps went up. That's as good as a price drop.

True swarming or multi-ship lists got a boost there, but aren't Resistance A-Wings a better swarm? Certainly Mining Guild TIEs are quite a bit better than LNs? Heck, even TIE/FOs are a better squad to choose. I just don't get it...two-thirds of the starter set is wasted plastic and pilot cards.

When Wampa kills multi action Nien Nunb, you know you have not wasted points.