48 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

True swarming or multi-ship lists got a boost there, but aren't Resistance A-Wings a better swarm? Certainly Mining Guild TIEs are quite a bit better than LNs? Heck, even TIE/FOs are a better squad to choose. I just don't get it...two-thirds of the starter set is wasted plastic and pilot cards.

Hello. To add my two cents here, I disagree.

I personally play an Howlrunner/Inferno swarm and I wrecked to pieces TIE/FOs and scum TIEs. The main reason being the far better synergy of the pilot abilities making them a lot more survivable (Iden and Del) and with a better offensive boost (Howlrunner and Gideon). They are also a lot cheaper than their TIE/FO counterpart.

Here is the list I'm flying.

TIE/ln Fighter - Academy Pilot - 23
Academy Pilot - (23)

TIE/ln Fighter - •Seyn Marana - 31
•Seyn Marana - Inferno Four (30)
Marksmanship (1)

TIE/ln Fighter - •Del Meeko - 31
•Del Meeko - Inferno Three (30)
Crack Shot (1)

TIE/ln Fighter - •Gideon Hask - 31
•Gideon Hask - Inferno Two (30)
Crack Shot (1)

TIE/ln Fighter - •Iden Versio - 41
•Iden Versio - Inferno Leader (40)
Crack Shot (1)

TIE/ln Fighter - •“Howlrunner” - 43
•“Howlrunner” - Obsidian Leader (40)
Swarm Tactics (3)

Total: 200/200

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

True swarming or multi-ship lists got a boost there, but aren't Resistance A-Wings a better swarm? Certainly Mining Guild TIEs are quite a bit better than LNs? Heck, even TIE/FOs are a better squad to choose. I just don't get it...two-thirds of the starter set is wasted plastic and pilot cards.

TIEs are the best swarm. They have Howlrunner and Iden, two of the best pilot abilities in the game. Probably the two best for swarms.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

True swarming or multi-ship lists got a boost there, but aren't Resistance A-Wings a better swarm? Certainly Mining Guild TIEs are quite a bit better than LNs? Heck, even TIE/FOs are a better squad to choose. I just don't get it...two-thirds of the starter set is wasted plastic and pilot cards.

Actually L/N’s, MG’s, and F/O’s are all a little different and benefit from different things.

The L/N is the base model obviously. The cheapest, but as you get into the Aces, you start to get synergies that improves their effectiveness or their individual threat levels. They are able to fit easily into any squad thematically, for those who are into that. It’s effectiveness is in it’s numbers and overwhelming defenses. They attack in a Death from a 1000 cuts mentality, especially when you add in the unique Imperial Talent, Ruthless. They also combine with several Imperial crews such as Admiral Sloan. They are a general workhorse.

The Modified TIE L/N’s, or Mining Guild TIE’s: still cheap but lack some of the base model’s maneuverability. While the can make up some of it by ignoring Asteroids. Which is also what limits it, they don’t ignore all obstacles. Aces have a couple of tricks but lack synergies overall. The fact they are S&V, makes them into either filler options or a mix and match for swarms of various styles which can make unusual target priorities, while maintaining the death from a 1000 cuts mentality.

TIE F/O’s: tougher, more maneuverable,and more expensive than the L/N. They still swarm and do what the L/N’s do, the, biggest advantage is their shields. Most of the Aces are designed to improve themselves wanting to be a bit more independent. Far less dependent on formation flying, they still are attempting to death from 1000 cuts. Probably the true staple of the F/O, even if people try to lean more towards the S/F’s or V/N’s. Much like Imperial TIE’s, they want to work with their crews to maximize the effectiveness, with Hux, Kylo, and Snoke, even with Shuttles such as Cardinal or Stridan.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

aren't Resistance A-Wings a better swarm?

They're better ships, but that's not necessarily a better swarm. RZ-2 A-wings top out at a maximum of 6 ships - they're very capable, with shields, heroic, and flip-around guns, but they're still agility 3, primary 2 ships, and TIE/ln can field 2 more of them, or else similar numbers consisting entirely of named pilots with some very impressive abilities.

Would I rather have an I1 RZ-2 than a I1 TIE/ln? No-brainer choice.

Would I rather have an I1 RZ-2 than an I5-with-Predator "Scourge" Skutu? That's a tougher question.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Certainly Mining Guild TIEs are quite a bit better than LNs?

I'm not convinced, for three reasons:

1. They're a point more than the Imperial equivalent. A point isn't much on a single ship, but multiplied by every-ship-in-the-swarm it becomes quite a fair chunk of points.
2. They only ignore asteroids, not debris. I tend to see people pick debris rather than asteroids (since it has a much lower chance to cause damage), so a good 1/3 to 1/2 of the obstacles on the board won't benefit from Notched Stabilizers. Equally, they only ignore them whilst moving - so you still lose your shot if you park on one
3. The dial is subtly, but not insignificantly, worse. Speed 5 being red is annoying but liveable with, but it does mean they lose speed dramatically on things like fast moving medium and large ships - the classic "turrets running away" like Dash Rendar, who can do the same stuff with obstacles they can, but they can't outpace him in a 'clear' dead run to catch up. More importantly, losing the speed 4 leaves them much less able to get their nose around in the sort of massed head-on pass that swarms tend to find themselves in.

Don't get me wrong, they're good, but I think I'd prefer the 'proper' navy version given a choice.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Heck, even TIE/FOs are a better squad to choose.

Now that's a much better debate. TIE/fo are much more capable ships - and the level of capability increase you get (target lock, green turns, segnor's loops, a shield token) more than justifies a 5 point investment. Where the first order falls over, by comparison, is the lack of cheap options and cheap named pilots that really kick the TIE/ln's competitiveness up by comparison - "Midnight" had his ability reduced in effectiveness and now costs only a point shy of "Quickdraw", whilst "Howlrunner" had her ability improved, and Mauler , Scourge, Gideon and Wampa are all priced more like generic TIE/fo, despite realistic access to bonus attack dice and (in two cases) I5. Plus, whilst Fanatical is good, it's a point more expensive per ship than Ruthless, and tends to only trigger on one or two ships at once (since your opponent will tend to want to shoot a ship till it's dead then move on to the next, rather than leave it unshielded)

Also, ninja-ed by @Ronu

16 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Also, ninja-ed by @Ronu

Nah, I went for a general overview, and you hit the hard nuts and bolts. So together we got some good information for those still trying to figure it out.

Biggest thing about getting L/N’s or any of the basic TIE’s on the board is really player willingness. Everyone easily finds what they don’t like about TIE’s, which is what makes them underestimated and often helps them succeed.

9 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Thanks for the very thorough advice on Ruthless. I really like the trick to stack the damage cost onto an already-dead TIE, I hadn't thought of that.

I had the joy of facing a first order tie swarm and i have to say it wasn't very funny.

Admittedly he was playing for keeps and I was trying to get two new players keen on the game. I think one of them will bail because of it.

It also didn't help that he sneaked in howlrunner - which I didn't twig until too late.

The following points have been touched upon, but I felt the urge to sum up:

-A single TIE/ln blocker is easily worth 23 points.

-There are any number of ace-like options that combine with a mini-swarm to solid effect.

-Full TIE swarm is GOOD.

The outlook that flying a swarm is "boring" or "too taxing" is overblown. You open with a joust, bank if the enemy does not comply, then K-turn if necessary and repeat. If the conflict does not go your way, you then have to solve some interesting spatial puzzles involving blocking and laying fields of fire. Maybe jousting is boring; but then you get those engaging puzzles in close matches. Maybe solving those puzzles all the time would be taxing, but just learn the basic formations and you can save your energies for when matches get interesting.

If you absolutely hate formation flying, Drea + Guild TIEs is an excellent archetype as well.

If we're talking traditional Howlrunner swarms, the 6 ship Inferno variant is magnificent, particularly in Hyperspace. Trajectory Simulator is rough, but those Resistance bombers aren't exactly invincible. The ugly matchup is Reinforcing Upsilons, but those things are the pieces that slipped past FFG balancing and give just about everything a nasty time.

On 1/31/2019 at 9:25 AM, Kristofer_Bengtsson said:

It is well known FFG are Rebel fan boys and dislike the Empire.

#Rebelbias

Really? REALLY? Rebel Bias? 1.0 would LOVE to have a talk with you about the X-Wings.....

I think the most important question is...

How can we get a TIE-like for The Republic and Separatists? After The Resistance gets the Ace Squadron, it'll also have its TIE Fighter!

And it'd be just unfair to leave out The Republic and Separatists!

23 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

After The Resistance gets the Ace Squadron, it'll also have its TIE Fighter!

... You're joking, right ?

If FFG were to offer new options for each time the protagonists steal a ship, the imperials/FO would quickly have nothing special left to play with...

And now the idea of a rebel TIE Defender is haunting me... that would be insane, but it would break my heart T-T

1 hour ago, AbsatSolo said:

If FFG were to offer new options for each time the protagonists steal a ship, the imperials/FO would quickly have nothing special left to play with...

True. On the other hand, I approve wholeheartedly of the concept of Commander Malarus in the stolen Black One.

When dealing with Boba Fet or someone else who loves to get in R1. ..just send 1 Academy Pilot out in block range and have the rest there at R2. Boba with no action and only 1 reroll isn't that powerful. Against a bunch of shots.

You don't have to go generic with Tie Fighters, either. Lots if good cheap pilots that don't cost that much:

- Wampa

- Night Beast (my favorite)

- Valen Rudor

- Black Squadron w/ Talent

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Boba with no action and only 1 reroll isn't that powerful. Against a bunch of shots.

I would agree, with the minor caveat that that's why he usually came pre-loaded with the Marauder title/Han Solo, or Maul, or 0-0-0, or a cheap Escape Craft co-ordinating him. There are ways to get him those tokens even if blocked.

7 hours ago, AbsatSolo said:

... You're joking, right ?

If FFG were to offer new options for each time the protagonists steal a ship, the imperials/FO would quickly have nothing special left to play with...

And now the idea of a rebel TIE Defender is haunting me... that would be insane, but it would break my heart T-T

Of course I'm joking. But it's still hilarious.

I think another thing TIE Swarms have going for them in Hyperspace is the lack of trajectory simulator bombs. Only the Resistance Bomber can bring them, but a TIE Swarm would eat one of those up.

Maybe removing any form of Red Maneuvers from the basic Tie Fighter would help, but also by the same token, remove the Green ones as well outside of straight, this would make this a easy to fly vessel and basic ship that it is in the lore. You never really heard about pilots every redlining the Tie Fighter systems, unless it was damaged, which COULD also be a gameplay mechanic. Damaged ships below 50% Can have their dials adjusted to add more Red.

Dont worry, Ill be here to wait for all the negativity surrounding this idea.

A dial with NO blue moves would be pretty garbage and that ship would just skirt the edges of the board to avoid ANY kind of debris. Let's not forget the several crits and talents that give stress that these TIEs would never be able to shed.

1 hour ago, Zeoinx said:

Maybe removing any form of Red Maneuvers from the basic Tie Fighter would help, but also by the same token, remove the Green ones as well outside of straight, this would make this a easy to fly vessel and basic ship that it is in the lore. You never really heard about pilots every redlining the Tie Fighter systems, unless it was damaged, which COULD also be a gameplay mechanic. Damaged ships below 50% Can have their dials adjusted to add more Red.

Dont worry, Ill be here to wait for all the negativity surrounding this idea.

Phasma, Sloane, Death Troopers, and Asajj would absolutely adore their foes flying ships without anyway to destress (and straight 2s and 3s alone really don't count). 😈

Oh, and 4-L0M, can't forget that psychotic former protocol droid.

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Phasma, Sloane, Death Troopers, and Asajj would absolutely adore their foes flying ships without anyway to destress (and straight 2s and 3s alone really don't count). 😈

Oh, and 4-L0M, can't forget that psychotic former protocol droid.

Just send them to a bar for a few drinks mid fight, they will be fine, let them take a few drinks, meet someone and relax for a few hours.

23 hours ago, Zeoinx said:

Really? REALLY? Rebel Bias? 1.0 would LOVE to have a talk with you about the X-Wings.....

OK

22 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I would agree, with the minor caveat that that's why he usually came pre-loaded with the Marauder title/Han Solo, or Maul, or 0-0-0, or a cheap Escape Craft co-ordinating him. There are ways to get him those tokens even if blocked.

True....that he would get a single token. If playing against many Ties, though, it wouldn't be enough.

6 hours ago, Kristofer_Bengtsson said:

OK

We all know Biggs wasnt an actual ship, but a upgrade to the OTHER Ships. This isnt a real x-wing as a "ship". This is a "Shoot this so my real ships dont get shot" upgrade card

5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

True....that he would get a single token. If playing against many Ties, though, it wouldn't be enough.

The Firespray does, annoyingly, have reinforce. Still not that great against a full swarm but not something to forget.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The Firespray does, annoyingly, have reinforce. Still not that great against a full swarm but not something to forget.

...not if it bumps...