Luke literally calls out the reason stormtroopers don't hit in ANH.
"I can't see a thing in this helmet"
You can bet that the helmet is mass produced for a specific build/height. Anyone that doesn't fit it perfectly, can't see a thing and probably can't hit. Take the helmet off and become a better shot. Combine that with rifles produced for the masses and see what you get.
But yes, once they were on the Death Star, the point was to let them get back off and find the rebel base.
9 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:I can buy it for ANH on the death star, but that theory falls apart when you think about the Millenium Falcon escape from Mos Eisley, or the ESB escape from cloud city. Neither situation is one where it would benefit the Empire to allow their targets to escape. The real answer is and always will be plot armor. They miss when they shoot at main characters and hit when they shoot at randos.
At both Cloud City and Mos Eisley, Stormtroopers accuracy was never particularly bad. Granted, they didn't hit anyone, but they weren't missing terribly either. At Mos Eisley, they encountered a single person who was shooting back and who immediately ran back into their ship. On Cloud City, it was a running gunfight with plenty of cover, and even a smokescreen to obscure accuracy, and even then they were making plenty of hits around the characters. RotJ is about the only time we see them in a conventional battle in the OT, and they seem to give as good as they got, until thep lot required them to lose.
considering some theories on how powerful Palpatine was during the death of Padme, perhaps Yoda and Obi were powerful enough to affect the outcome of some battles as well......
1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:At both Cloud City and Mos Eisley, Stormtroopers accuracy was never particularly bad. Granted, they didn't hit anyone, but they weren't missing terribly either. At Mos Eisley, they encountered a single person who was shooting back and who immediately ran back into their ship. On Cloud City, it was a running gunfight with plenty of cover, and even a smokescreen to obscure accuracy, and even then they were making plenty of hits around the characters. RotJ is about the only time we see them in a conventional battle in the OT, and they seem to give as good as they got, until the plot required them to lose
So basically plot armor.
Plot armor isn't a bad thing, it's part of the action-adventure-fantasy genre.
Star Wars is built out of tropes. It doesn't need to stand up to intense logical scrutiny.
11 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:I can buy it for ANH on the death star, but that theory falls apart when you think about the Millenium Falcon escape from Mos Eisley, or the ESB escape from cloud city. Neither situation is one where it would benefit the Empire to allow their targets to escape. The real answer is and always will be plot armor. They miss when they shoot at main characters and hit when they shoot at randos.
At Mos Eisley, they were shooting at only Han, who was shooting back while scrambling up the ramp into his ship. And we can't expect small arms fire to cause appreciable damage to a ship, especially one fitted with extra aftermarket armor like the Falcon.
At Cloud City, Vader repeatedly expresses interest in Leia (and the Wookie) suggesting that he wants them captured alive. He says as much to the bounty hunters. He even had the Falcon's hyper drive deactivated in case they did get back to the ship before being arrested. It's quite clear to me that the Troopers would have been ordered to not kill them.
The real plot hole is why didn't they just set their blasters to stun? I'm sure if I thought for a minute I could think of an off camera reason, so it doesn't bother me that they don't use the stun setting. I'm just conceding that there's no reason given in the explicit text of the movie why they would not.
4 minutes ago, Albertese said:At Mos Eisley, they were shooting at only Han, who was shooting back while scrambling up the ramp into his ship. And we can't expect small arms fire to cause appreciable damage to a ship, especially one fitted with extra aftermarket armor like the Falcon.
At Cloud City, Vader repeatedly expresses interest in Leia (and the Wookie) suggesting that he wants them captured alive. He says as much to the bounty hunters. He even had the Falcon's hyper drive deactivated in case they did get back to the ship before being arrested. It's quite clear to me that the Troopers would have been ordered to not kill them.
The real plot hole is why didn't they just set their blasters to stun? I'm sure if I thought for a minute I could think of an off camera reason, so it doesn't bother me that they don't use the stun setting. I'm just conceding that there's no reason given in the explicit text of the movie why they would not.
Because everyone immediately forgot about the stun setting after that 1 scene in ANH.
27 minutes ago, Albertese said:The real plot hole is why didn't they just set their blasters to stun? I'm sure if I thought for a minute I could think of an off camera reason, so it doesn't bother me that they don't use the stun setting. I'm just conceding that there's no reason given in the explicit text of the movie why they would not.
1
I would wonder if there are range or accuracy limitations of the stun setting that we aren't aware of. It would make sense as the beam is being reduced in power and spread out from the normal bolt.
7 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:I would wonder if there are range or accuracy limitations of the stun setting that we aren't aware of. It would make sense as the beam is being reduced in power and spread out from the normal bolt.
This makes a lot of sense to me. The few times we see it, it's always at pretty close range. The other thing I thought of after a minute's consideration is that maybe it's less effective on Wookies? Who's to say.
3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:Me? I came over from xwing 1.0 which was solidly well past any degree of immersion with consistent mirror matches, characters from the future flying with characters who died before they were even born, etc. So it didn’t really bother me because full immersion has never been a part of my gaming experience. But I could see how it would impact someone else.
I don't really care that they sell the products necessary for more than one approach. I care that they seem to balance the units on the assumption that there's only one way to play. Han Solo (or whoever) with a bunch of upgrades is worth more than the sum of his parts, and worth more than equal points spent on several squads: they can't do much to him, and he'll whittle them down quickly. They aren't REALLY balancing the various units very well.
In D6 it was vaguely implied that movie heroes weren't part of the game, but they made figures of them and published their stats so there was nothing stopping you from using them. We used to do that sometimes for fun, it was interesting to make up old encounters between Han Solo and Greedo or whatever.
In D20, at least generally speaking, the units were well enough balanced against each other that if you played with only expensive unique characters, or no uniques at all, you could still count on an exciting close game between two intelligent people who'd both played a couple games before.
I'm not seeing Legion to shape up in this anything-goes style so far. When Legion says it gives you "a canvas to create the Star Wars army you’ve always wanted to lead into battle" it practically has an asterisk that says "With at ton of your points spent on big movie characters, and not a lot of vehicles, and nothing that has that little arrow icon, unless you want to concede on turn 4."
have you ever played Imperial Assault? It’s not really a war game, but it covers a lot of the points for things you said you liked in your original post.
18 minutes ago, slope123 said:have you ever played Imperial Assault? It’s not really a war game, but it covers a lot of the points for things you said you liked in your original post.
It does. The campaign mode with an ipad is a fun start to SW gaming.
2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:I would wonder if there are range or accuracy limitations of the stun setting that we aren't aware of. It would make sense as the beam is being reduced in power and spread out from the normal bolt.
So in the RPG by FFG, switching to stun setting caps your range at "Short" and it cannot be increased by any means. I would assume that there is some reason for this decision, since 2/3rds of enemies treat Strain and Wound damage as the same thing so it's not like it's a balance thing.
3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:
Because everyone immediately forgot about the stun setting after that 1 scene in ANH.
I thought Vader mentioned it in ESB, when giving orders to a boarding party when he thought he was going to recapture the Falcon at the end.
37 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:I thought Vader mentioned it in ESB, when giving orders to a boarding party when he thought he was going to recapture the Falcon at the end.
Makes sense, stun settings would be ideal in a tight shipboard action like we see on the Tantive IV
2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:I don't really care that they sell the products necessary for more than one approach. I care that they seem to balance the units on the assumption that there's only one way to play. Han Solo (or whoever) with a bunch of upgrades is worth more than the sum of his parts, and worth more than equal points spent on several squads: they can't do much to him, and he'll whittle them down quickly. They aren't REALLY balancing the various units very well.
In D6 it was vaguely implied that movie heroes weren't part of the game, but they made figures of them and published their stats so there was nothing stopping you from using them. We used to do that sometimes for fun, it was interesting to make up old encounters between Han Solo and Greedo or whatever.
In D20, at least generally speaking, the units were well enough balanced against each other that if you played with only expensive unique characters, or no uniques at all, you could still count on an exciting close game between two intelligent people who'd both played a couple games before.
I'm not seeing Legion to shape up in this anything-goes style so far. When Legion says it gives you "a canvas to create the Star Wars army you’ve always wanted to lead into battle" it practically has an asterisk that says "With at ton of your points spent on big movie characters, and not a lot of vehicles, and nothing that has that little arrow icon, unless you want to concede on turn 4."
Yeah, Legion is pretty explicitly character based and not a simulationist war game. The rules do a pretty good job simulating 'plot armor' and the fact that main characters rarely miss their shots while waves of Stormtroopers rarely hit with theirs. Vehicles will start to gain more traction (hah!) when the landspeeder and tank come out, proving cheaper options to fit into a list.
I think there is a ton of room for house ruling Legion into whatever you want it to be if you are planning on only playing casually (as I do 90% of the time). I've seen blogs where people don't play with named characters, or create experience systems to level up their squads campaign style, or change the weapon ranges to be 'more realistic'.
And if you want to see bigger armies with more vehicles I would highly recommend playing a 1600 vs. 1600 point grand army game with 2 players on each side (on a 6 x 4 play area). It's great fun!
11 hours ago, slope123 said:have you ever played Imperial Assault? It’s not really a war game, but it covers a lot of the points for things you said you liked in your original post.
Yes, of course. Not a fan, Legion is 20 times better
18 hours ago, crx3800 said:Luke literally calls out the reason stormtroopers don't hit in ANH.
"I can't see a thing in this helmet"You can bet that the helmet is mass produced for a specific build/height. Anyone that doesn't fit it perfectly, can't see a thing and probably can't hit. Take the helmet off and become a better shot. Combine that with rifles produced for the masses and see what you get.
But yes, once they were on the Death Star, the point was to let them get back off and find the rebel base.
15 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:Yeah, Legion is pretty explicitly character based and not a simulationist war game.
I don't think it can be a simulation since the events of the Galactic Civil War never occurred. But I do think that the best games support multiple play styles, and Legion doesn't.
The only thing it's explicitly based is infantry. Which may or may not include characters as long as they're on foot.
Edited by TauntaunScoutOn 2/5/2019 at 3:39 AM, TauntaunScout said:There's nothing fluff/canon about Vader killing Leia or Boba Fett killing Luke or Chewie killing Chewie or stormtroopers killing the emperor. Contrary to Alex Davey's statements about the way HE likes to play HIS games, for a large segment of the gaming population, adding main movie heroes immediately destroys immersion.
Killing?!
There's killing in Star Wars?!?!?!
I think you're imagining things.. heroes are merely DEFEATED ... they run to fight another day!
I'm actually serious.
Just like in every serious simulationist wargame squads don't fight to the last man, but basically lose morale and cohesion and cease to be useful in the game and so we remove their playing piece (but in reality there are plenty of able bodies soldiers still alive - heroes in Legion fight until wounded or hopeless and have to retreat to fight 'next week in another thrilling episode of...'
2 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:Killing?!
There's killing in Star Wars?!?!?!
I think you're imagining things.. heroes are merely DEFEATED ... they run to fight another day!
I'm actually serious.
Just like in every serious simulationist wargame squads don't fight to the last man, but basically lose morale and cohesion and cease to be useful in the game and so we remove their playing piece (but in reality there are plenty of able bodies soldiers still alive - heroes in Legion fight until wounded or hopeless and have to retreat to fight 'next week in another thrilling episode of...'
I'll get you next time, He-Man!!!
17 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:Killing?!
There's killing in Star Wars?!?!?!
I think you're imagining things.. heroes are merely DEFEATED ... they run to fight another day!
I'm actually serious.
Just like in every serious simulationist wargame squads don't fight to the last man, but basically lose morale and cohesion and cease to be useful in the game and so we remove their playing piece (but in reality there are plenty of able bodies soldiers still alive - heroes in Legion fight until wounded or hopeless and have to retreat to fight 'next week in another thrilling episode of...'
I also see it as this way. Ya your trooper got shot in the shoulder and can't really aim right so he doesn't get to throw any dice. Good thing you have a medic to pump him full of drugs so he can ignore the pain long enough to get into the battle. Or maybe storm trooper armor doesn't suck and that guy is just unconscious. If his side wins he will wake up with a really bad headache.