It would be ironic if Hantei Daisetsu was more of a threat to the Empire than Daigotsu ever was.

5 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

I don't know if that's true. Certainly every aspect of a narrative should be relevant otherwise its just wasting page space, but finding something interesting is kind of like finding something funny in that it's highly subjective.

When a character with multiple appearances- and even more references- has not shown any nuance whatsoever in all of those appearances, they're well on the road to redundancy.

If you can find something subjectively interesting in such one-note repetition, you're a rare breed.

On 2/1/2019 at 5:24 AM, Hida Jitenno said:

While you aren't wrong, you're talking about a point of view mainly established in the modern world.

Ask the Spanish Inquisition if torture worked. They'll tell you it did.

Ask 1700-early-1900's era American Police if torture worked. They'll tell you it did.

You aren't wrong that torture is incredibly wrong and real-world studies back that up. History is fairly opposite of that point of view, making Daisetsu centuries ahead of his time.

Actually the Spanish Inquisition will tell you it usually it doesn't work.

They were notable compared to their contemporaies in the restraint and paucity in which they applied torture. They were perfectly aware of the failings of torture.

If Sotorii suddenly appeared as multi-dimensional and sympathetic, it would be a bit jarring. Maybe even unbelievable. But I wouldn’t call it unwelcome.

Frankly, it doesn’t make much sense that the crown prince would be such a lout. I get that he’s spoiled. But then again, Daisetsu would also be spoiled — spoiled to a degree that could only seem somewhat less staggering by comparison to his elder brother. But even so Daisetsu would be egregiously spoiled compared to any other child of the samurai class. And even then, the sons and daughters of daimyos and champions would also be enormously spoiled. So why aren’t any of these other brats even remotely as oafish and oblivious as Sotorii? Why isn’t Jodan himself a total buttwipe?

I think we are meant to suspect that Sotorii is mentally disabled. And I guess in Rokugan, this kind of thing goes undiagnosed in heirs of tremendous prestige. So that’s a possible angle to flesh out this character: Sotorii is actually suffering from a disability and nobody is helping him deal with it, or even willing to acknowledge it, and instead the way he is treated just makes it worse and worse because the older he gets, and presumably the closer to the throne he gets, the more isolated and alienated he becomes from anything like a normal human relationship.

Possibly, the Emperor half-guesses Sotorii is “mad” and is worried about Steel Chrysanthemum Part 2. Possibly, Satsume had a better handle on what’s going on with Sotorii and was subtley helping him/keeping him in line. I can only imagine that Satsume’s death left Sotorii well and truly alone in the world, bereft of anyone strong enough to care about him rather than simply judge him. No wonder he acted out when the Ruby Champion stepped in, inadequately, to pick up where Satsume left off.

I have a feeling that when Satsume died, the last grown up in Rokugan died.

Sotorri is the classic heir corrupt. He’s had it all, been told he’s descended from heaven and bought into it. It’s pretty inevitable that over time an empire like this is going to produce these characters. Look at almost any dynasty, it is pretty commonplace. It doesn’t mean he’s one dimensional, just that he’s a piece of work. He’s also come at the worst time. He’s likely going to make it all very much worse, and then get possessed by Fu Leng.

Boooooring.

3 hours ago, Manchu said:

Boooooring.

@Manchu

Please take what I am about to say in the most respectful way possible.......

Shut your face! 😛

The sooner Fu Leng is in the story, the better. I don't care if he has to possess a twit like Sortorii or not.

I want my glowing eyes and extra arms!

I really don't think FFG is going to go that route. They seem content to focus on the clan wars more and I think that makes for a better story. And the story is one thing they have done extremely well with so far.

Oh I don’t mind Fu Leng making an appearance but one-note butthole Sotorii is boring.

1. Coup(but mixed up, more nuanced and way better).

2. Coronation of Sotorri. Crazed, incapable and corrupt. Concubine Kachiko plots her revenge.

3. Clan war. Crab on the March. Crane, lion, unicorn conflicts galore. Kachiko stirring that pot.

4. Black scrolls being opened. Return of Fu Leng. Oh my what’s going on in the imperial city...

5. Second day of thunder.

Told over probably 6-8 years.

I see some other stuff thrown in there. Different routes with Daisetsu, Yoritomo etc. Story is being told much better this time round there is character and nuance, and these writers are pretty brilliant. But I’m pretty confident that’s where it’s going.

11 hours ago, JolOfNar said:

1. Coup(but mixed up, more nuanced and way better).

2. Coronation of Sotorri. Crazed, incapable and corrupt. Concubine Kachiko plots her revenge.

3. Clan war. Crab on the March. Crane, lion, unicorn conflicts galore. Kachiko stirring that pot.

4. Black scrolls being opened. Return of Fu Leng. Oh my what’s going on in the imperial city...

5. Second day of thunder.

Told over probably 6-8 years.

I see some other stuff thrown in there. Different routes with Daisetsu, Yoritomo etc. Story is being told much better this time round there is character and nuance, and these writers are pretty brilliant. But I’m pretty confident that’s where it’s going.

Meanwhile at FFG HeadQuarters:

-Uh.. Mr Petersen?

-Yes?

-There's this guy on the forums who has correctly predicted everything we had planned for the story of Legend of the Five Rings up until 2027.

-Legend of the WHAT?

-Of the Five Rings, sir.

-And what's that again?

-One of our licensed brands, sir.

-Uh...

-[waits patiently]

-Uh... And what does it go about, exactly?

-[sigh] Like I told you the previous 18 times, it's some fantasy thingie based on feudal Japan some company named AEG made, and then it got really unlucky and we bought the property, sir.

-The brand or the company?

-Both.

-How?

-Please don't ask, sir.

-Ah, well, then they shouldn't complain to me that the game isn't as good as the original. I'm the boss, not a designer!

-No, actually... they're loving it.

-[spills his coffe] What!? How? How is that possible?

-No one is capable of explainig it, sir, but the fact is there are even voices that claim it is better (or, at lest, less stupid) than the original.

-This...this is madness! It goes against the tendency of every other franchise adquired by someone else in history. [suddenly realizes the horrific implications and calls the security staff] Attention, attention, please forget all other jobs you may be assigned now or in the future. From this point on, you shall be indefinitely reassigned to the new task of guarding our HQ from Disney ninjas. Thanks in advance from your CEO, Christian Petersen.

-Sir?

-Yes?

-Disney ninjas? Seriously?

-Never underestimate Disney.

-So, um, back to the subject at hand. We make fiction for that game, and a forum user going by the name of JolOfNar accurately predicted each and every one of our plot twists. What should we do, sir?

-Why, change the plot of course!

-Are you sure this is a good idea?

-Yes, of course. Now, Mike, go get me some new coffee

-Sir, my name is...

-Shut up Mike!

[somewhat later, not!Mike returns with the coffee]

-[sips] Ah... Thank you, Mike. It's delicious.

[Mike doesn't answer, instead looking in shock at the ninjas in the ceiling]

[concretely, the ninjas with the fake ears of You Know Who]

-I warned you Mike!

On 2/2/2019 at 9:34 AM, Manchu said:

Possibly, Satsume had a better handle on what’s going on with Sotorii and was subtley helping him/keeping him in line.

If certain pieces of fluff are any measure, then Satsume had his own (not very Heavens-compliant) reasons to promote Sotorii for inheriting the throne and discredit not!Daigotsu.

11 hours ago, 987654321 said:

-So, um, back to the subject at hand. We make fiction for that game, and a forum user going by the name of JolOfNar accurately predicted each and every one of our plot twists. What should we do, sir?

-Why, change the plot of course!

Some people have speculated that George R.R. Martin will do or has done exactly this. God, I hope not. There's a difference between "ugh, this is so predictable" and "based on my knowledge of narrative structure and close reading of what you've said so far, I predict that XYZ is going to happen." The former is bad; the latter is not. And throwing out perfectly good foreshadowing and plot development just for the sake of surprising the audience is rarely going to produce good results.

Doing the unexpected is easy. Doing the unexpected in a fashion that is ultimately satisfying is much, much harder.

Which is to say: it is a delight to read all the speculation here, popcorn in hand, and I hope FFG never changes things because oh noes, somebody guessed where we were going. Me, I don't actually know the answers to all these questions; some things fall within the range of my headlights (how far ahead in the story I can see, based on the work we're doing), but some of them don't. I generally stay out of these kinds of discussions because I don't want the knowledge I have to influence how I respond; if I do chime in, it probably means I know nothing about where that aspect of the plot is headed -- e.g. what FFG has in mind for Sotorii in the long run.

1 hour ago, Kinzen said:

Some people have speculated that George R.R. Martin will do or has done exactly this. God, I hope not. There's a difference between "ugh, this is so predictable" and "based on my knowledge of narrative structure and close reading of what you've said so far, I predict that XYZ is going to happen." The former is bad; the latter is not. And throwing out perfectly good foreshadowing and plot development just for the sake of surprising the audience is rarely going to produce good results.

So literally what DC Comics did with Monarch , then? Yeah, I really hope that never happens; there's a world of difference between a plot twist and pulling something out of your donkey, and I like the current story too much for that to not be a complete enthusiasm killer.

@987654321

Hey, just a little note, Petersen left FFG in December, so not the boss anymore

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/12/31/farewell-and-game-well/

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:36 AM, Tabris2k said:

I don’t remember who said it, but somebody accused Daisetsu of “weak” in one fiction, and other said that Sotorii was “cruel”. That’s where the conflict will grow, not on how likable are each one.

Possibly Doji Satsume? It sounds like the Palace Of The Emerald Champion letter.

And yes, whilst Hantei Daisetsu is infinitely more likeable as a person , that doesn't necessarily make him a good heir either.

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:09 PM, Kaito Kikaze said:

The more I go back and reread the ending of this...the more concerned I seem to get about supporting Daisetsu, after all. We'll have to see how this all plays out, as I'm not too keen on the idea of supporting Sotorii, either.

I think that's the point. Putting this as a choice to the players of 'least worst'....

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 3:36 PM, Mangod said:

it sounds like it was Daisetsu and Sotorii who fought, with Dairu as the witness, not as an active participant.

Technically it's still "their" duel, no matter who acts as champions. Remember - Hantei Sotorii is entitled to name a champion as well, if he wishes. It'd have to be someone he can fetch "in an hour", but having the two friends turn up to be confronted with the Emerald Champion (if he's back), or even Dairu's Father, would technically be possible. "Here is your father. It's a duel to the death...." is not impossible given the vicious pettiness level he's displayed so far.

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 7:51 AM, Kinzen said:

There are period documents criticizing the efficacy of torture (at least there were in the context of witch trials, which is what I was studying) . . . but in general, yes, you're right. People believed it worked, or didn't care if it worked because their actual goal was to get the answers they wanted rather than the truth.

Yes, but - as is driven home in In The Palace Of The Emerald Champion, an investigator's job is not to get to the truth . It's to get to the most universally politically acceptable conclusion, with testimony to support it, whether it's actually true or not.

On 2/3/2019 at 9:16 AM, AtoMaki said:

If certain pieces of fluff are any measure, then Satsume had his own (not very Heavens-compliant) reasons to promote Sotorii for inheriting the throne and discredit not!Daigotsu.

I guess you are talking about the RPG starter adventure. But I’m not sure what you are implying. Satsume was not Kolat and was apparently murdered by them.

20 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I guess you are talking about the RPG starter adventure. But I’m not sure what you are implying. Satsume was not Kolat and was apparently murdered by them.

The adventure heavily hints that Satsume had Kolat leanings or was part of the conspiracy. IIRC, one of the endings is even revealing this to the Ruby Champion.

All I got from it was that Satsume knew the Kolat existed and was studying its agenda.

Just now, Manchu said:

All I got from it was that Satsume knew the Kolat existed and was studying its agenda.

They tried to recruit him (and succeeded to a point), but then he found out “another way to save the Empire”, so the Kolat killed him because he knew some of their members and secrets, IIRC

I believe they killed him because he did not support (i.e., opposed) their agenda.

5 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I believe they killed him because he did not support their agenda.

We don't know the actual reason he was killed from the adventure, just that he was in communication with some one who apparently had ties to the conspiracy and the strong implication is given that they were or actively had recruited him.

To adopt your phrase, the strong implication is Satsume was killed because he ultimately opposed the Kokat agenda.

30 minutes ago, Manchu said:

To adopt your phrase, the strong implication is Satsume was killed because he ultimately opposed the Kokat agenda.

That is an assumption, its just as likely that someone found out what he was plotting and killed him in retaliation of that. Given his position it would be of utmost importance that if he was a member of the conspiracy that any word of it be quieted to stop the further spread of any instability the knowledge of that may cause to the empire.

There is also the possibility that another member of the conspiracy could have had him murdered due to an unrelated conflict, or as a pure power grab. In the end we don't know for sure what his relation to the conspiracy was and anything we say is pure conjecture based on our opinion and the reading of the fluff from the adventure.

We know a Kolat conspirator assassinated Satsume.

Please settle on using either “assumption” or “strong implication” — rather than applying a double standard.

3 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

They tried to recruit him (and succeeded to a point), but then he found out “another way to save the Empire”, so the Kolat killed him because he knew some of their members and secrets, IIRC

I dunno but as far as I can remember from the adventure the characters can find out that Satsume exchanged letters with at least one Kolat member and find a whole cache of legit Kolat stuff in his Cranecave. I think that pretty heavily implies that he was with the Kolat and got killed by a rival for undisclosed reasons. Unless the Kolat was changed in the new fluff and now you can stumble into their stuff if you really want even if you are not a sect-member. That's a possibility, tho, I'll give you that.