Ok I have been stewing on this for a while, and have decided to add something to my campaign: this will apply to any character whose class is outside Summoner or Warrior Summoner. A Creation Point will be required to use Summoning skills. I'm going to establish that any character who wants to develop summoning skills must first spend 1CP to acquire specialized Learning in a specific area (occult). This is mainly because summoning requires specialized knowledge and a great deal of study and preparation to learn. This training would be inherent to the summoning classes mentioned, and since the art is so powerful, such knowledge would be guarded, and only the most ardent seekers would be able to obtain usable grimoires.

This makes summoning run parallel to other supernatural abilities in terms of investment and availability. I just don't like the idea that any brute can take up summoning just because they feel like it, or they got ahold of one book somewhere - they are bored, and decide to spend the next level's DP to become a part time demon summoner.

I'm not really comfortable with this... Even in non-anime fiction, the only characters who can perform effective summoning are skilled/knowledgeable occultists. Those without proper knowledge seem to only be able to accomplish disasters and unleash harmful forces, which is the mainstay of a certain horror genre.

Has anybody else out there seen a bit of a problem with open access to summoning?

hellgeist said:

Sothing like this has not even come up among my players. But if it did I'd adopt something similar to this. My initial ruling would be, "Okay find someone to train you how to summon." I'd evolve this into some kind of side quest for the PCs and if they are sucessful in tracking down a summoner willing to teach his art, they would then have to spend the DP and then wait until next level until they are able to perform a summoning ritual. My Idea behind this is that you can't even learn to summon until you have decent ranks in the abilities. Kind of like teaching someone how to play baseball with out a bat, mitt, or ball. But once the level passes and they've gleamed knowledge from the tutor (perhaps after paying a price for this knowledge) the PC may then attempt to summon a creature. After that if the GM wants to wreak havoc with the PCs is up to their discretion.

The full idea behind this is that while they may have the ability to summon a creature, they don't have all the skill or knowledge that one who has been raised with it would have. So in theory they would not be as adapt at calling up a familiar. At this point the GM has carte blanc of what type of personality the beast has.

Investment of time and risk is a good trade, and almost a deterrent when the cost of making good use of it is fully realized.. The creature creator lets you make some entities that are extremely dangerous even at very low level. It was because of this that I decided to make this ability more exclusive. A person allowed to just dabble away with summoning could very accidentally create a situation where you have a game balance problem. ie: level one demon with access to fire magic and resistance to normal weapons -= Good bye whole villages and towns, and probably goodbye character once the inquisition finds out.

"I thought you just wanted a familiar?"

"....."

hellgeist said:

But if something like that happens and the one or several players die, there is potential for a story arc, whether it is slaying the monster, avenging the PC by hunting down Inquisition members, or maybe trying to find a way to bring the PC back from the dead. There is also potential for the players to go on the run from the church if they are being hunted by the Inquisition. There are so many different story elements that can be implemented from such an event.

There certainly is. Such events can and will happen in Gaia. I suppose the campaign could just start over with new characters at a later date. The only concern in this regard is that the adventure I'm running involves intrigue and some sensitive plot development. So I either let people reap what they sow, or try to make things not quite as easy to blow up .

I realy don't like the idea of having to spend more creation points on summoning. To be a summoner I already have to by the advatage of the gift so i can use zeon to begin with and see the soul flow.

As for 1st lvl character as a gm i would only let a sommoner start with one creature that they can sommon and if the creature they make thouh the creature creatraion rules is a deamon that has fire and immunity to normal weapons then i would let him sommon it but it is not a bound creature so he has to fight with it every time he sommons it and h dose not know its true name making the sommoning roll all that much harder on him at lvl one.

If the player wants to be more resonable about the creature i would think about leting him have it as a bound creature at lvl 1. Also keep in mind as a gm you have finial approval over any player made creature. If anything spend 20 min and make up some low lvl elementals or some such and say these are what you know how to sommon an to get more or bond them make it a quest. Remember that by lvl 1 you have done your schooling and are setting out on your first adventure after been tought how to do your things.

cwhttiger said:

Pg 176: "Even though Summoning is a supernatural ability, individuals who use these powers do not necessarily need to have the Gift of Magic."

That was the reason for my original idea, so that it would become a CP investment that at least approaches that of Wizards, and not such an attractive opportunity to cause power imbalances in a campaign.

It's definitely sure that summoning does not require The Gift...nor do you require The Gift to use Zeon. I can't see problems with letting characters get summoning abilities. Of course characters should learn summoning (and similar) from some master and ANYWAY the DP investment from non summoning classes is so high that there's no way a Warrior or a Technician would start summoning (well...now we have ki summons for technicians...but that's entirely another story) seriously. Even summoner classes have a pretty hard time DOING summoning.

The most non-summoner characters can learn are the 5 points base that they might need to help the party's summoner in his own rituals. That's as far as my experience goes.

On the other hand i STRONGLY RECCOMEND allowing the summoner to buy a few Gift-Only Advantages: Increased Zeonic Regeneration and Magic Nature, since they BADLY need it.

Also remembrer: Arcana Exxet allows characters to buy Zeon Regeneration Multiples for Half the cost of MA. They work as MA multiples but only apply to regeneration.

Actually, I would say that you need to have The Gift to be able to Banish, Summon, Control, or Bind. It is used to be able to access your Zeon.

page 109 under 'Magic Recovery'

"Characters without the Gift cannot access their magical power; this means they are not able to give magic points to individuals who can."

This would make the Gift needed to even accumulate Zeon (which is accessing magical power).

So, you already need The Gift to access Zeon and accumulate, cast spells, and use all of the Summoning abilities...

Greetz

Pavlovian

Summoning is the only supernatural ability that does not require the investment of CP to use (okay, you can use ki powers without it, but not really at first level)

If you are going to require a CP to be spent to use the summoning powers you should require it for every one, including Summoners and Summer/(something else).

I don't see the problem with a non-summoner getting a summoning skill. Paladins and Anti-paladins are supposed to. To use all the summon powers effectively it costs tons of DP. 1st level summoners are straining at their ability to even summon and control a creature in combat unless they know the true name of a creature, have a part of it or have something that it owned, hopefully all three. I don't see someone who spends his most of his points on something else being an effective summoner. If a player did that but didn't use a summoner class it would simply be a waste of points.

That all being said, if a player wanted to invest in just one of the summoner skills, like a witch hunter character who just had banish. Or a wizard who just had control, or just bind might be cool.

Sure the player would run into the same problem of splitting their points too much, that will always happen if a character tries to take abilities outside their class.

I would probably not allow a player to simply just take summon. That is a good way to get every one killed, or be unbalancing. I can imagine an Assassin sneaking into a castle and then summoning a really nasty demon or something, and then running away, leaving the demon to kill the inhabitants of the castle. Depending on the campaign this might not be a good thing.

Pavlovian said:

That quote only describes channeling zeon - giving away or taking points between two people.

The ONLY supernatural abilities that the Gift confers, is the ability to see magic, cast spells, and resist magic a little better than others. That is all.

If you are a supernaturally trained individual, you can still do other things with your power besides cast spells. Summoning is one of them, and it's powerful. That is why my initial suggestion at the start of this thread was to require 1CP investment to learn the specialized occult knowledge that makes this possible for a summoner. Its not casting spells, and summoning cannot happen fast like spells can. But, if you survive it's many risks, a skilled summoner should be a challenge even to a spell-caster.

1)

"Characters without the Gift cannot access their magical power, this means they cannot give magic points to individuals who can."

Let's break this sentence up:

Access their magical power could mean :

- casting spells

- accumulate Zeon

- give magic points (Zeon) to others or objects.

This means they cannot give magic points...

the result of part one (not access power) is not give magic points

Because in the second sentence they say 'cannot give magic points', I take it that accessing magical power has a different meaning, and that it means accumulating Zeon.

So

2)

A character without the Gift cannot access Zeon

Zeon is needed to use the summoning abilities

So a character without the Gift cannot use summoning abilities.

So

3)

Being able to summon, banish, etc.... needs a CP investment (The Gift)

or Investing CP in the Gift means you are then able to accumulate Zeon, share Zeon with other casters or mystical objects, cast spells, use Magic Appraisal, and use Summoning Abilities.

What is the catch: you want to use Summoning Abilities, cast spells, AND know the theory behind magic. Fine, but you will have to spend a lot of points to make every aspect work in a good way... In my experience, casters who also summon have to sacrifice points towards MA or Zeon to be able to use even one Summoning Ability.

Greetz

Pavlovian

Sorry for the long post but wanted to be clear as to what my logic is...

Lol, I have to take back my previous post.

Read the Summoning section, and it clearly says that you can summon without having the Gift, so I stand corrected.

Sorry

If it was me, I would have the player invest in The Gift to be able to use summoning abilities....

Greetz

Pavlovian

Summoning is powerful only if you apend an amazing amount of DPs on it, hence I don't believe any CP requirement is needed.

Let's suppose the aforemenentioned Assassin wants to (very stealthy) assassinate an entire castle by summoning a demon there...

I believe an at least Level6 creature should be required...

I assume the Assassin has spent his time studying the subject so he actually knows the name of the demon he intends to summon. Demons' existence are not common knowledge in Gaia, even more so for very powerful entities...so I believe a minimum of 50 Occult should be required to allow an assassin to have an idea of what to summon and let's even say it's name (I'm being VERY generous...). That's a base of 150DP unless the assassin has either Aptitude to Occult and/or Occult Natural Learner...which require some expenditure in DPs...not so good for a Rogue...

Now, anyway...you DON'T WANT to fail summoning a Demon in the middle of an ostile castle...and supposedly you don't have more than 1h to do your ritual when you're there...so the Summoning difficulty is 260...reduced to 220 by 1h preparation and knowing the demon's name. Our nice fellow requires about 200 Summoning to have reasonable good chances of achieving his plan (really I wouldn't try it with any less...). That's just...600DP investment.

Considering you can't allocate more than 300DP on Summon at 1st level and no more than 50 each level...our nice Assassin will be Level 7 before he can attempt his mad plan...A level 7 assassin who has invested at least 600DP on SUMMON and 150DP-15DP+1CP on Occult.

Oh, and there's Zeon too...either you allocate a 9 on Power (not so useful for an Assassin, who should privilege Dexterity, Agility, Perception) or you'll have to spend some DPs there too!

Now...your character is one of the highest level Assassins in the world (Level7 is pretty high in Gaia setting at least) and is incredibly weak compared to similar level assassins UNLESS he somehow enters a place and is left undisturbed for a whole hour...

All this without considering the difficulty of fleeing from the demon's ire (Demon's aren't really kind creatures, you know...), expecially if you consider you've spent so many DPs on Summon and so you have fewer for the rest...

I don't believe creating such a character would be appealing to anyone...of course that's my opinion.

PS - Believe all you want...in the Core Rulebook its CLEARLY STATED that Summoning abilities are accessible to anyone...even people without the Gift. You don't even ACCUMULATE zeon to use summoning abilities, Zeon is just a cost you pay once the ritual is up.

Consider that Arcana Exxet offers few adantages for summoners that don't include Gift requirement among the limitations). Also, it offers the opportunity to buy Zeon regeneration forMA half price for the exact reason that actually Summoners JUST require Regenerating Zeon and higher levels (especially to mantain bound creatures/familiars) and having to spend as much as a mage who requires MA also for casting spells more rapidly would be unjust since summoners don't get any bonus to summoning speed.

Also note that Arcana Exxet includes a few Rituals that may be performed from people without the gift. They're like VERY LOWER spells (level0, I'd say), some of which require a few people to work. People using such rituals have to spend Zeon at the end of the ritual BUT IT'S CLEARLY STATED that those rituals were devised by people without The Gift.

The big limit a Gift-less summoner is that he cannot receive any Zeon from companions or any summoned creature (of course summoners cannot FORCE creatures to pass them Zeon, as said in the rulebook, but summoners with the Gift may still "ask" politely for it from creatures who're good natured toward them). Simply put, Summoners have need to regenerate like mad (even more so once they begin using invocations or incarnations, a nice trick from Arcana)...that's why I'm allowing the summoner in my party to buy enhanced Zeon Regeneration and Magic Nature even though he hasn't got the gift.

There's a special rule in Aracna Exxet that allows you to buy Magic Regeneration Multiples. They cost half the price of Magic Accumulation Multiples, but only give you the regeneration factor, not the ability to channel. This is great for summoners.

As for the issue of not requiring the Gift or any other advantage - absolutely. Summoning is the skill of a specialized academic, not a farmboy made lucky by fate. The DP costs for a Summoner to be able to Summon is daunting. Keep in mind the difficulty of any Summoning skill and the potential consequences of failure. A one-round use of a Summoning skill is virtually impossible for a first-level character unless that character is a summoner and invested most of his DP into that skill. Paying for them at 2 DP per +1, you won't be able to get it to a rank at which you can reliably use the skill on anything, even with an hour's concentration, without seriously cutting into your other abilities, and even then it'll probably take a couple extra levels to be able to manage even minor creatures.

Honestly, non-Summoner types (including Warrior Summoners, as well as Paladins and Dark Paladins in their specialized areas) taking Summoning skills has never come up in any gaming group I know of except for once, and that was dropped when the player actually tried to make the character.

I have to take back part of my post as well. I went back and the part of the book that talks about summoning and you are right it dose not need the gift. Though i still would suggest either see supernatrual or the gift. Not all things that can be summoned have a matrial form. If i summoned a spirit like the shadow form the back of the book. If i could not see it how would i know if i summoned or when it came to me?

As a gm i would require any player wanting to start a game as a summoner to take one of these two advatages along with artifact if they want to start with a bound creature. Remeber characters don't start with a magic iteam like something that has a creature bound to it without that advatage. So there are plenty of ways to make a player spend cp with out making a special one for summoners.

Pneumonica said:

I agree with Pnemonica. Though you may perceive a lack of symmetry in the rules in Summoners not needing to spend CPs, it isn't an issue in play. Summoning requires significant cost in DPs that pretty much prevents dabbling. Also, Summoners need CP to deal with the massive Zeon costs involved.

Personally, I really like the idea that Summoning can be done without specialised training. After all, you are just inviting a creature into existence and not utilising any innate power. Of course, doing so is incredibly dangerous as without that specialised training, the Summoner will have no control over what is invited. It epitomises the idea of a devil's bargain to me which is very flavourful.

cwhttiger said:

Once upon a time I posted to a thread about the lack of pre-generated demons that summoners could call up, or use for reference when creating them with the GM. I suggested adapting content from the demonic lexicon in the game Dragonquest, as it is a well-ordered list of demonic heirarchies, going up the proverbial ladder from basic to most esteemed and powerful of the infernal legions. It also discusses some of the behavior of these creatures, and the nature of summoning itself, and this is mainly because that part of the game's magic is based on real-world occult practices.

It is advisable to know a little bit about such things in order to use them logically in a hypothetical scenario such as this game. All these mechanics are drawn from real occult history, its not just made-up. When a summoner calls up a demon, it is known as an 'Evocation to Visible Appearance'. What that means is, the demon is commanded to not only show up in the Triangle outside the summoning circle, but to also take on a visible form to facilitate whatever trafficking is to take place. (this does not necessarily mean that the demon will appear to other people, unless specifically commanded to do so). The only reason a demon would not take on a visible appearance is because the summoner has not established authority over it with his Charge (failed the Control roll).

So according to historic demonolatry, the summoner needs neither the Gift nor See Supernatural to both summon and see his demons.

It should be pointed out that investing CP in the gift does allow you to cast spells without any further DP invested. The spells(your spell levels) you know come from your intelligence and how much of your spell levels you GM lets you spend. Granted if you don't invest any points into magic projection you will never hit anything with your spells, but there are plenty of spells that do not require any magic projection roll. A summoner would likely invest in a pretty good Zeon and at least some Zeon Accumulation. So spending the CP to get some free spells might be a good idea. Sure the summoner will never be able to do what a wizard can do with his magic, but it might still be worth the CP.

Hellgeist, I can understand what you are saying. This whole thread has been about if there needs to be a special cp cost for summoners. My statment was more about the mechanics of the game not what they are based on in real life. Creatures that have the spirit type have no matreal form to take. Take the shadow creature for example. I could summon it. if i made my roll it would show up. i could even make my control roll and forcing it to do my biding. But with out see supernatural or gift i cant see it according to the rules that i have read. Remeber that creatures you have summon and control do not have to answer you when you speak to it. Imagen since binding and summoning are skill and knowlege based if i summon something i cant see and it breaks control which control is basicly a contest of wills i would know when it broke out of my control but if i can not see it at that point how do i know its around me to banish it. I can not see it any longer due to the fact it is no longer under my control and i can not see spirit creature due to not having the see supernatural or gift advatage.

So I say that insead of a special cp cost for summoners make them take one of these 2 cps so they can see the supernatural creatures that they are dealing with and making pacts with after the fact. There is nothing like a lose spirit that you can not see on the lose that is hell bent on killing you and you cant see it.

All I am saying is that there are plentay of ways already there to control or limit a summoner with out creating a new one.

So... why doesn't the "summoner assassin" just summon the creature BEFORE infiltrating and bind it into an object:? A +5 object of any sort would be able to hold a level 7 summon, ya know.

pirouette said:

Because if he is spending enough DP to be able to summon and bind, he is using a ton of DP in a pretty inefficient way. It would probably be cheaper to build a summoner with a good stealth skill.

cwhttiger said:

This raises an interesting point - I don't have the rulebook with me at the moment to look this up again, but I thought that invisibility only applied to Spirits. Aside from creatures of pure Spirit whose nature is to be invisible, when you are summoning a Between Worlds demon who, for example, has attributes that make him a warlike being - attacks, damage barrier, natural weapons or weapon skills, and so on - how are they not visible?

Such a demon would have to take on a physical form while in this dimension, in order to use its body and abilities. They may be immune to normal weapons because they are Between Worlds, but they are vulnerable to energy, magical weapons, and spells. This means that, like undead, they could be burned to death with fire or even electrocuted if they did not have a natural resistance/immunity to it. Otherwise, a village or castle of normal humans is going to suffer the same fate as the crew of the Nostromo, no matter what they do.

Um... how so? Stealth costs 2 BP to raise. Bind, only 1. Could you provide a more specific example?

Nownow...if you're building an "Assassin class summoner", all summoning skills come at 3DP per point...which is much more inconvenient than building a "Summorner class assassin" who only needs 2DP to rise hide&stealth AND can buy natural learner in subterfuge skills AND aptitude in subterfuge skills (you cannot buy either natural learner or aptitude to summoning skills). If you wanted your "Assassin class summoner" to develop ALSO bind to the levels to trap a demon capable of destroying a castle...well I'm not even wanting to calculate which level you should have reached with your absolutely craptastic character...

To answer hellgeist...Summoners can summon anything they want as far as they're Between Worlds beings and not Natural beings.

Actually there's another IMPORTANT limitation. Undeads cannot be summoned by non-Undead summoners. That's explained in Arcana Exxet I believe and is due to the fact that Undead are out of the Soul Flux so only other beings out of it can somehow summon them.

There's no way summoners can only summon invisible stuff! Who said that?!

Interesting Enough, only Ancient Dragons are summonable, since younger Dragons are Natural Beings and only Ancient ones are Between Worlds! Of course you need to be a hell of a summoner to summon and control Level 11 stuff...