So the S/F gunner is pretty costly given his ability at 10 points. So it’s certainly not an auto include item. It almost feels like your trading the Missile for the gunner if your trying to keep cost from getting too obsured on a two defense die ship.

How much play is actually being seen with the S/F gunner? Has the change in cost of ordnance going to make them more or less looked at?

You'd have to present a hefty argument for me to NOT use the SF Gunner.

Consistent 3 attack dice is better than conditional 3 attack.

MegaSilver is right. It's an upgrade we can't afford to lose. The only instance where you don't want it is if you spam a bunch of missiles or if you want jank with hotshot gunner. It effectively turns the SF into a deluxe FO X-wing. 4X(Gunner) SF + Hux Upsilon is a lit list, Quickdraw's ability is meaningless without that extra die (primary only, for revenge), and the option to double-tap on a fanatical ace (such as a budget quickdraw once the shields are depleted) are very good. The SF is costed with the Gunner in mind, but the gunner is its own card because a text wall of 1st edition's "Special Forces Training" would not work well on a ship ability card that wants to make the arc-indication skill based with rotate actions instead of dual-arcs.

I think it's worth it on most TIE/SF pilots. One COULD make the argument that it isn't needed on Backdraft. In particular, if you trade the SF gunner for a missile on Backdraft, you are coming out ahead on points.

I kinda like Backdraft builds which don't run the gunner, but that's an odd exception.

I'm glad they designed the ship and gunner combination the way they did. Particularly in a 4-ship faction, it was a great design concept to make the SF into a cheap-ish missile ship, since it essentially is now two ships in one (cheap-ish missile ship and X-Wing-like mainline jousting medium fighter).

However, cheap-ish missile ships just aren't that good in general. A TIE/SF without a gunner is a lot like a TIE Aggressor. An extra health, and you have to buy a Dorsal Turret which only goes front/back. But almost no one is going to play a TIE Aggressor (other than Kestal for Kestal's ability). It's nice that the option is there, even if low-init Missile ships are pretty meh.

But is the SF with a gunner even good? Well, Quickdraw has the Init 6 going for them. Init 6, maybe with Advanced Sensors and/or Afterburners--that's decent, like Wedge is decent.

As to the generics, they're not really any worse than generic X-Wings (T-65 or T-70). They just have a bit different flavor. They're all decent baseline ships, but probably not unfair enough to be top-tier, like a lot of stuff in X-Wing.

For quickdraw - who gets multiple attacks per turn - it's very worthwhile. Backdraft doesn't really need it.

For lower initiative pilots that you're trying to keep cheap - missiles might be enough.

For Quickdraw it's all but mandatory. On everyone else it's optional, and that's great.

I have a problem with quickdraw and the hard limit of bonus attacks, it really limits QD imo.

34 minutes ago, william1134 said:

I have a problem with quickdraw and the hard limit of bonus attacks, it really limits QD imo.

Yeah, I forgot about that and nearly lost a game because of it...Basically I know play QD with the turret in the front until I lost my shields (and fly accordingly).

Exactly... it kinda ruins the whole point of the Tie SF.. of which I am just not that impressed with it in V2, ESPECIALLY for the low generics who just don't have the knowledge on if they will need to rotate their turret and so you will miss out on double-shots.

Backdraft - Wondering if this ability works with special forces gunner, can Backdraft make a primary attack forward then make a bonus primary attack backwards (turret) and gain the additional dice? I'm unsure as to the ruling between primary attack and bonus primary attack.

Works, it is still a primary attack, so he gets to roll his additional die.

I’ve run Quickdraw with Hotshot Gunner and Cluster Missiles a few times. It worked quite well. First attack is a primary stripping any focus token. Any Quickdraw second attack is then with the missiles. I back up with Backdraft and Juke. Major Stridan then co-ordinates most of the time but also comes with the Upsilons high health and 4 dice primary. I enjoy it and think it’s a decent build although @MegaSilver @player3010587 @Magnus Grendel @Okapi show us most disagree and probably with good reason. Luckily I don’t belong to the loathsome Republic so I don’t have to go with majority rule 😝

(45) "Quickdraw"
(7) Hotshot Gunner
(5) Cluster Missiles
(2) Fire-Control System
(2) Fanatical
Points 61

(41) "Backdraft"
(10) Special Forces Gunner
(2) Fire-Control System
(5) Juke
Points 58

(63) Major Stridan
(6) Collision Detector
(5) Pattern Analyzer
(5) Captain Phasma
Points 79

Total points: 198

42 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

I’ve run Quickdraw with Hotshot Gunner and Cluster Missiles a few times. It worked quite well. First attack is a primary stripping any focus token. Any Quickdraw second attack is then with the missiles. I back up with Backdraft and Juke. Major Stridan then co-ordinates most of the time but also comes with the Upsilons high health and 4 dice primary. I enjoy it and think it’s a decent build although @MegaSilver @player3010587 @Magnus Grendel @Okapi show us most disagree and probably with good reason. Luckily I don’t belong to the loathsome Republic so I don’t have to go with majority rule 😝

(45) "Quickdraw"
(7) Hotshot Gunner
(5) Cluster Missiles
(2) Fire-Control System
(2) Fanatical
Points 61

(41) "Backdraft"
(10) Special Forces Gunner
(2) Fire-Control System
(5) Juke
Points 58

(63) Major Stridan
(6) Collision Detector
(5) Pattern Analyzer
(5) Captain Phasma
Points 79

Total points: 198

I hope you realise that QD's ability only works to shoot a primary attack? And, with the limit of one bonus attack per turn, if she uses the bonus attack from the Cluster Missiles she can't use her ability that turn?

47 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

I hope you realise that QD's ability only works to shoot a primary attack? And, with the limit of one bonus attack per turn, if she uses the bonus attack from the Cluster Missiles she can't use her ability that turn?

😂 what was I thinking... missiles or primary as normal attack from either front of back arc depending on turret direction then primary or primary turret if QDs ability triggers that’s how I played it anyway... is that wrong? Forgive me I have a wee cold and the paracetamols haven’t kicked in.

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:53 AM, Sasajak said:

missiles or primary as normal attack from either front of back arc depending on turret direction then primary or primary turret if QDs ability triggers that’s how I played it anyway... is that wrong?

That's fair enough. The bonus attack has to be from lasers. Thing is, if you've bought Quickdraw a specfor gunner, cluster missiles aren't really getting her anything.

Cluster missiles are nice for other pilots - they're essentially a cheap way to get a 3-dice attack at range 2 from your turret. If you use the bonus attack for anything, that's a bonus (literally) but primarily it's the lowest cost-per-charge missile that you can buy, and is a decent budget alternative to the specfor gunner for a generic.

Fanatical also pairs well, giving you some modification on the bonus attack if you get a shot with it.

Totally worth it! Why not have consistent 3 attack die per round?!

14 hours ago, nj3478 said:

Totally worth it! Why not have consistent 3 attack die per round?!

[farmboy]Because we could almost buy our own ship for that! [/farmboy]

Obviously you couldn't. But a Zeta Squadron Survivor with Cluster or Concussion Missiles costs you 40 points or less, meaning you get 5 of them, whilst with special forces gunners you're limited to a maximum of 4. Plus, the missiles are arguably a more consistent 3-dice attack from some perspectives because I can fire them out the back with Heavy Weapons Turret, making the ships into 'mini backdrafts'

Pretty much auto-include.