Can I play a plot card besides an overlord upgrade in the same turn?

The rule say that I can play one (and only one) overlord upgrade, but I think that the upgrades are monster upgrades, treachery and avatar upgrades only , because plots are in a separated par.

Otherwise, how must I play market when heroes are in Riverwatch? I am playing that if the heroes buy a treasure, I replace it inmediately (they have 5 treasure everytime). Is it correct?

gran_orco said:

We have always played that you can. The reasoning is that while Plot cards are included in the short list of Overlord Upgrades you can purchase per week in the weekly turn sequence rules on page 10, they are not mentioned in the full list on pg24 of Overlord Upgrades. I've looked through the FAQ and GLoAQ and I haven't seen anything about it.

Probably not the best answer, but if you take that full list on pg24 as the "official list" then no Plot cards are not considered Upgrades so you can pay for one and still buy an Upgrade in the same week. If you go with the one or two sentences in the book that list Plot cards are Overlord Upgrades, then no you can't. Hopefully someone can give you a more official stance, since right now my answer definitely falls under the category of "House Rule"

gran_orco said:

I'm slightly confused here. The Overlord has nothing to do with Riverwatch refilling really. But yes, as far as I remember it refills immediately each time they buy something since there is no stated limited in the ability.

gran_orco said:

1) No, you may not. Plot cards are considered Overlord Upgrades (they have an XP cost, sure it may be zero in almost all cases, but it is there for a reason), and you may only buy one Upgrade a week.

2) Do you mean that if the heroes buy a treasure, you are then drawing a new one to be immediately available to purchase in the market? If so, that is incorrect. Riverwatch's market "Fills up completely" means that you re-draw any treasure caches that come up on the initial market draw for the week. You do not draw treasures to fill the market because a hero bought one.

Big Remy said:

Page 14 of the SoB rules state clearly that Plot Cards are considered upgrades:

Upgrades
The overlord may purchase one upgrade per game week with his XP. Upgrade examples include Avatar Upgrades, Plot cards , treachery upgrades, and monster upgrades. For a full list, see “Overlord Upgrades” on page 32.

I don't have the RtL book in front of me but check "The Game Week" section there under Overlord Actions > Upgrades for RtL verification.

Fizz said:

And page 24 (RtL) and page 32 (SoB), which is the full list of Overlord Upgrades doesn't have them listed. I'm not saying your are wrong, but do you have an official source other than a two 1 line sentences that clarifies that the list was wrong?

Again, not saying you are wrong but that's the way we have always played them. Hence why I said my claim falls under the domain of " House Rule "

I'm sorry, but the "full list" argument doesn't really hold water. By your argument, Plot cards could never, ever be purchased, because while in one section it says (really insanely clearly, I might add) "one of the following per week", they arent in the "full list", so therefore don't exist.

Come on, don't nitpick for the sake of nitpickery.

Fizz said:

Yes, I mean that I take another card when they pay for a copper, silver or gold item. I will give you an exemple:

- I draw 5 treasure cards: The first card is a treasure cache, so I redraw another treasure card and the first is discarded (I take a weapon). The second card is a treasure cache, again, but I keep it because the city says "when I take the first card... not every treasure cache -at least it is like this in Spanish version-" . Third, fourth and fifth card are items.

- The party buy 2 cards, and then I draw another 2 treasure cards to replenish the initial number of five cards.

That is what I understood. So, am I wrong?

Fizz said:

Dude, seriously? Of all the BS arguments that have flown around this board you actually want to throw the "nitpick" label on this one. And of course they exist, but if you go with full list then they are just not considered Overlord Upgrades and are purchased when the conditions are meet during the OL's turn.

Like I said...HOUSE RULE. If you don't like it, that's fine. I NEVER claimed it was RAW. I have REPEATEDLY said it was a HOUSE RULE.

Let it go.

gran_orco said:

Sorry, but yeah, you are wrong. You never redraw for a market when the heroes PURCHASE something from the market, only when a Treasure Cache is drawn from the initial weekly draw.

Fizz said:

1) Plot cards are not necessarily "overlord upgrades" (as Remy says, they are not in the full list of Overlord Upgrades) but the text on pg 10 is clear.
RtL pg10
The overlord may purchase one upgrade per game week with his XP. Upgrade examples include Avatar Upgrades, Plot cards , treachery upgrades, and monster upgrades. For a full list, see “Overlord Upgrades” on page 24.
Whether it is a plot card or an OL upgrade he chooses, the OL is still restricted to one upgrade per week, total, and plot cards explicitly count.

2) The actual text on the mapboard at Riverwatch is:
When drawing Market items , replace treasure caches with another card. The Market always fills up completely unless there aren't enough cards left in the deck to do so.
The first part is the base rule, the second part an explanation or expansion of the base rule. The only time that market items are drawn is the first time during a week that a hero visits the market. So the rule is only invoked then, and the market fills up completely. If a hero then buys a market item then there is no redraw to kick the rule in again so no refilling. (The second part/explanation of the rule has already been fulfilled and the rule is finished with for the week because there is no more 'drawing market items' and the rule only kicks in 'when drawing market items'.)

gran_orco said:

Yes, wrong. To be very clear...

Any time you draw a treasure card at Riverwatch and draw a market cache you draw another card. That is all... The spanish translation appears to be in error...

In your examples
- You should draw another card for the first treasure cache (#6). Then another card for the second treasure cache (#7). If either of #6 or #7 are treasure caches then draw another card (#8). Do not stop drawing until you have 5 items at the market.

- the party buys 2 items and you do not redraw any cards. The Riverwatch rule only triggers 'when drawing cards' and that is only done the first time you visit the market in any given week.

Big Remy said:

Right. House rule. What about the part in Beginning a New Campaign where is also says that Plot Cards are Upgrades?

6. The overlord player begins the Advanced Campaign with 15 XP to spend on Avatar Upgrades (but not Lieutenants, Plots , treachery, or monster upgrades). See “Overlord Upgrades” on page 32. Note that these XP do not affect the overlord’s conquest token total. This XP cannot be saved for later, and any not spent at this time are wasted.

Or, does this not apply because it doesnt say the words "full list" in reference to page 32?

I don't really care how you play it at home, I just want to make sure that anyone reading this who might be wondering about this same thing gets a good idea of how things are interpreted. Your "house rule" gives a significant advantage to the OL. I'm not stupid enough to argue "intent" but I will argue RAW.

And as for the nitpickery.....I would say (in my short 2 month tenure posting and reading these boards) that the majority of the rules issues presented in these [descent] forums fall under nitpickery. I'm just calling it out now instead of on page 4.

Fair enough.

As for advantage, in the three campaigns of playing it that way it hasn't actually been much of an advantage.

Big Remy said:

For the sake of nitpickery...
RtL pg4
Plot cards are otherwise purchased in the same way as Avatar Upgrade cards, except that they may have special conditions the overlord needs to meet first.
You certainly can purchase Plot cards...

RtL pg 10
The overlord may purchase one upgrade per game week with his XP. Upgrade examples include Avatar Upgrades, Plot cards, treachery upgrades, and monster upgrades.
Nothing there that states plot cards are Overlord Upgrades, just that they are upgrades. And they are not in the list of Overlord Upgrades. 'Plot upgrades' I guess...
Nonetheless, the OL can only pick one upgrade per week, be it plot upgrade or OL upgrade....

Wrong in every aspect of the argument, but right in the result...

I've only OL'ed one, and played in another, and as OL in SoB, if I could buy a plot upgrade at the same time as another upgrade, my players would be screwed six ways from Saturday. As it stands now, I only go for the plot if I have nothing else I can upgrade.

PS: Remy, I wasn't trying to be a ****** or anything, so if you took offense to what I said, I apologize for my form.

PPS: But that Corbon guy is a total ******!

Fizz said:

No no, no offense taken at all.

I'm sure I'm wrong, its just the way we played it and stuck with it. I think we did it as result of the way RtL plays where once you get into Silver/Gold weapons the OL starts losing some ground.

I agree entirely. In copper, I had the players up against it so hard, they asked me if I am able to sleep at night knowing how cruel I am (they would end a typical dungeon about 10-15 xp behind me). Now that we're into silver, (and the heroes spent two weeks shopping in a Market Rating 5 town) the fights are about even (our first silver dungeon XP count was 16-16) and I know that I am going to have to change up my tactics a whole bunch in order to earn those precious conquest tokens. Dark Charm is rapidly becoming my new best friend.

Spanish version of Descent and its expansions has all the erratas and faq included in the cards and rules. So It is strange this translation of Riverwatch. I am reading it: it says, translated to your language: "When drawing the first Market item, replace treasure caches with another card. The Market always fills up completely unless there aren't enough cards left in the deck to do so." This sentence (when drawing the first item...) is repeated in every city. I have understood what you have said, it is only that I am curious.

When could I finish a deck? I do not undersand...

On the other hand, the rules about upgrades and plots could be an errata, as many others in the book. As an example, if you see page 10 in your english book, you can read the following in Overlord actions: "When the overlord acts during the game week, he may do two different types of actions: issues order to his lieutenants, and purchase an upgrade. He may do these in any order, even purchasing an upgrade between issuing orders to different lieutenants ."

However, in the page 24, Overlord Upgrades, you can see the following sentence: "The overlord may buy one (and only one) of the upgrades described below each game week using his XP. This occurs in the Overlord Actions game week step, after lieutenant actions have been carried out. "

And, in page 10 (recuperate / train action) it says: "If a hero recuperates, he spends 50 coins and is restored to full wounds and fatigue." But later we received an official answer: "A hero can recuperate only if he is in a city".

So, as you can see, Plots are not necessarily Overlord Upgrades because one sentence says that if another sentence seems to be opposed.

It would be nice and useful if we had an official answer about this.

You could finish a treasure deck if the heroes had a bunch of that deck's equipment in use or in their packs.

Sometimes, heroes will not sell back items to the shop as soon as they are able to, especially if the deck is low, as sold treasures go right back into the deck. And if the item is crap, they dont want that crap recycled back into the treasure pile.