36 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

But if I were like my brother, who basically just shows up to play once a lunar cycle or less, that level of player could walk into a FLGS to game to hear:

"That's amazing. Everything you used to play is now wrong."

And that would be an NPE before you even got to sit down.

Fair enough, but I would think most casual groups would let someone play their list anyway if they play that infrequently and it's a legitimate mistake.

Way back in high school, I used to play Decipher's Lord of the Rings TCG. There was one guy who brought a really brutal Moria deck, which was illegal due to several of its cards being X-listed. We still played with him a few times, until after a couple weeks when he flat-out refused to use any other deck (even with us offering to loan him cards or allow him to proxy), because he knew the X-listed cards gave him a huge, unfair advantage over our legal decks. Applying that to X-Wing, if an infrequent player drops in and has an illegal list, I'd play him anyway. If he shows up week after week with broken, illegal combos and refuses to change them even after it's been brought to his attention, he may quickly find himself without opponents to face.

I’d argue that the casual player can just use quickbuilds, which don’t change.

11 minutes ago, XPav said:

I’d argue that the casual player can just use quickbuilds, which don’t change.

Is that true??

I thought some have had threat levels changed.

20 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

changes  that are designed to keep tournament players happy. 

There are positives for casual players as well. I don’t play tournaments and I’ve been waiting, for example, for Proton Torps to be upped in price to balance them a bit. They’ve been pretty ridiculous. Also generic TIE Advanced x1 price decrease it might help them in my casual games. I mean only a nutter like me wants to take a whole squadron of TIE/x1s and FFG have helped me. These changes are good for the whole game and we don’t have to wait for the next wave with new cards.

Now if only they’d get a wiggle on with Epic...

I wouldn't say it's dead, mostly because the points are only going to being changed twice a year. In my opinion that's plenty of time for a casual player to see the changes and enjoy the game before they are updated again.

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Is that true??

I thought some have had threat levels changed.

I've noticed some minor changes in the quickbuilds. Things like replacing Juke on Zuckuss with Lone Wolf, which makes way more sense since there is no way for the G1-A to get an Evade token.

I also believe the Threat Rating on the Quadjumpers went up with the last Quickbuild release. Can't speak to factions other than Scum.

8 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Is that true??

I thought some have had threat levels changed.

As other people said, yes, they have. But I'm going to guess that once printed in a 2e expansion pack they won't change.

I guess I'm not really sure we have a definite agreement on what a "casual" player is. I don't think they're going to be that concerned with twice-yearly point changes, they'll be more concerned with getting their plastic spaceships on the table and having some fun. (Heck, I saw a friend playing against a guy on this kitchen table with an 2e X-Wing and 2e Scum Falcon on the same squad). 5-10-20 points there, ok, whatever.

Well that was what the whole system was designed around. Casual was supposed to be threat related while competitive was point related with points and upgrade slots being changed, so you wouldn't need to change what was on the cards.

That being said the threat system does continue to seem like more of an afterthought. The conversion kits didn't have any requiring a printout much like trying to play standard without the app. The threat cards themselves don't follow any sort of upgrade or point system but to be fair they don't have to. But nothing else goes to threat other than casual not even cinematic. There is no campaign like in Imperial Assault or anything that uses threat.

It seems like FFG is trying out way too many systems and formats all at once and seeing what sticks. Some have fallen off the wall onto the ground completely (i.e. Runewars, Imperial Assault Skirmish) others is still there but with so much stuff still getting thrown at the proverbial wall anything that is still on might become part of the wall or just knocked down.

37 minutes ago, XPav said:

As other people said, yes, they have.

Which kinda is my point of this whole thread. Another change. Semi-noted somewhere. How the **** is anyone supposed to stay current without being a try-hard?

20 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Well that was what the whole system was designed around. Casual was supposed to be threat related while competitive was point related with points and upgrade slots being changed, so you wouldn't need to change what was on the cards.

That being said the threat system does continue to seem like more of an afterthought.

Yeah, great. Again the part of the game that is supposed to be designed with me in mind is the sub-par ill-executed half-brother to the game they are actually working on.

Moreover, I like listbuilding, so QB holds zero interest to me. But I don't like meta-listbuilding well enough to rethink how the game has been redesigned every 6 months. Maybe the changes will be smaller next time and the game will settle into a groove. But with "Shake Up The Meta" being a long-term mantra of the design team, I am dubious.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

...

Yeah, great. Again the part of the game that is supposed to be designed with me in mind is the sub-par ill-executed half-brother to the game they are actually working on.

...

I take it you were a fan of skirmish mode for Imperial Assault?

15 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I take it you were a fan of skirmish mode for Imperial Assault?

Naw, I was referring to Epic. I haven't played IA, despite my brother trying to make it happen for 2 years.

He got me to play this game first, and now that I'm in, I would rather spend the time/money on a single game.

*****

Maybe, having read the article, this will be the only major revision. But FFG just keeps making me intimidated/alienated about recommitting to this game at a beer-and-pretzels level.

1 hour ago, HammerGibbens said:

While I think Meanie's point is a little exaggerated, the tone of everyone disagreeing with him is barbaric.

Can we not engage in discourse here? Must we immediately attack the Darth? Is not this a place for discussion among learn-ed pilots??

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

You likely feel this way because you are unaware of the context. The OP has started countless threads complaining about the game (which he doesn’t play as he hasn’t bought into 2.0). That’s likely why people are responding the way they are.

Once I got frustrated with OP and asked him why he was still posting here if he hated the game so much. My question was uncharitable and I regret asking it. It’s best to ignore him, but it’s challenging with all the salt he pours on this forum.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Maybe, having read the article, this will be the only major revision. But FFG just keeps making me intimidated/alienated about recommitting to this game at a beer-and-pretzels level.

I think I'm just a little confused by... well, you? (Not being mean).

You're playing epic, so you've got lots of plastic spaceships, and you like making lists, and you're presumably interested in new ships that show up to make the game interesting...

But you don't play competitively, and you're worried that using an app (official or otherwise) to keep track of point costs for your non-tournament lists is too much work?

I mean, if you go to a 40 5 point list for your Wednesday night game this week, because of the point changes, it's ok, we won't tell.

37 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

But with "Shake Up The Meta" being a long-term mantra of the design team, I am dubious.

I think "shake up the meta" is just there to keep the game from becoming the same three decks repeatedly; it doesn't necessarily mean everything is out the window every six months.

As an example, I had four decks made in the official app that were legal prior to the changes. After the changes, three are still legal (and still pretty close in bid), and one went from 200 to 202, so only minor changes required there. Part of the reason is that I don't go for the meta-defining power-builds. If someone is going for top-of-the-line, Worlds-winning lists, they'll have to make massive changes when new points drop. For most of us playing casual, just-for-fun lists on the fringes, there are going to be much smaller changes required anyway.

Also, from what I've seen, it even looks like more stuff went down in price than went up, so just as you might find that your list is a couple points too expensive, you may also find that your list suddenly has space for an extra upgrade or two.

20 minutes ago, XPav said:

I think I'm just a little confused by... well, you? (Not being mean).

You're playing epic, so you've got lots of plastic spaceships, and you like making lists, and you're presumably interested in new ships that show up to make the game interesting...

But you don't play competitively, and you're worried that using an app (official or otherwise) to keep track of point costs for your non-tournament lists is too much work?

I mean, if you go to a 40 5 point list for your Wednesday night game this week, because of the point changes, it's ok, we won't tell.

Maybe an analogy can help.

I enjoy tennis. I'll certainly never get to Wimbeldon, and I am not competitive enough to want to be in a league.

But if I'm going to play, I'd like to have a decent backhand, and something more than a lob serve.

But if FFG keeps changing the racquet over and over, it's much harder to get a decent feeling for the game, and I'll be less inclined to play keep up. Which, as many people have pointed out, I am already failing to do.

21 minutes ago, Old Sarge said:

The OP has started countless threads complaining about the game (which he doesn’t play as he hasn’t bought into 2.0). That’s likely why people are responding the way they are.

I have also started plenty of threads celebrating what I like in the game.

The one I started about creativity with Tramp Freighters got about 3 replies and then slid off the front page. I have a bunch of stuff in the Epic subforum that almost no one goes to.

Sadly, the best way to keep a thread visible here on the boards is to accidentally piss people off. Mostly based on a preconceived notion that I only want to bash the game.

I don't think 2.0 is the best thing since sliced bread. I haven't played it yet. I have gotten a modicum of agreement with my concerns I've voiced here. I've admitted in post one that most people are happy with the game and think the points changes are fine/great. And I didn't think I had to be a card-carrying 2.0er to have an opinion.

Lastly, if I am a known thorn in your side, you can skip my stuff.

But 1.0 was already changing every few months as new ships and upgrade cards were being released, not to mention new mechanics! Not only that, they were totally breaking the OLD game, to the point where even MORE upgrades had to be released to prop up the old ships!

So.... what's different about a 2.0 points-rebalance, especially if its point is to keep more ships and upgrade viable?

27 minutes ago, XPav said:

But 1.0 was already changing every few months as new ships and upgrade cards were being released, not to mention new mechanics! Not only that, they were totally breaking the OLD game, to the point where even MORE upgrades had to be released to prop up the old ships!

So.... what's different about a 2.0 points-rebalance, especially if its point is to keep more ships and upgrade viable?

Visibility, if you will.

When you buy a new ship with new cards and a new mechanic, you expect to need to learn those new rules.

Point changes of this magnitude mean that old ships work completely differently. Brobots, for example, is now a 3-pack at 200 points instead of a pair. Adding an upgrade card to a ship to make it better is easier to spot than a missing upgrade slot or point change that makes a ship illegal in a list.

The game is supposed to change, absolutely. But if the meta turns into a running game of

that sucks.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Visibility, if you will.

When you buy a new ship with new cards and a new mechanic, you expect to need to learn those new rules. 

But if I had a great list at Wave 3 of 1.0, and didn't buy anything else, and then took it against someone who bought some stuff in 2017.... well, I wouldn't have a fun time. The game changed even if the points didn't!

24 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Adding an upgrade card to a ship to make it better is easier to spot than a missing upgrade slot or point change that makes a ship illegal in a list.

...How?

They are both literally the same in that they both simply require you to read something.

And the app makes it easier to view the thing that has changed instead of digging out a card. Or having to buy it.

How is 2 Brobots going to 3 possible any different from the card that made it possible to play 5 X-Wings instead of 4 in 1e.

How is an old list that could previously fit Supernatural Reflexes on Luke and is now over the points limit any different from Deadeye being made small ship only in 1e? Any old list you had with Deadeye on Punishing One was made illegal by an update in a pdf. Exactly the same process as has just happened here .

Again, it's now easier to see that you can't fit SR into a list, because your saved list has updated. If you owned the original printing of Deadeye, then reading it would only have told you incorrect information until you bought an expansion with the updated text.

17 hours ago, XPav said:

But if I had a great list at Wave 3 of 1.0, and didn't buy anything else, and then took it against someone who bought some stuff in 2017.... well, I wouldn't have a fun time. The game changed even if the points didn't!

Yeah, the game changed, alright.

If you went back to Wave 3 in 1.0 and suggested that points changes to balance the meta was a great idea even if it would have made lists illegal, you'd have gotten laughed out of the room.

Go figure.

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

As a casual Epic player who builds 8-12 ship lists, the app does not have near enough functionality to make it more than a a place to brainstorm.

Everyone I know uses Launch Bay Next to make lists. It's friendly for epic and lets you duplicate ships.

It's really not so bad.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, it's that keeping track of the game itself now becomes a major endevour. Even if you use the app, you can play a list and come back to the app a few months later and discover your list is illegal, same, or undercosted. And now you have to wade through PDFs, blogs, or what have you to figure out why. 

It's twice a year that FFG have outrightly said will happen in January and July...

If it happened every week or every month then I would agree with you...but it's twice a year. Can you not I don't know... remember there's point adjustment right at the start and in the middle of the year?

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

And the discourse could be, while all these point changes are "great" for the short term balance of the game, I would worry that this could exhaust less-dedicated player from wanting to play keep up.

Which is now a question I am now asking myself about my commitment to this game.

Again...twice a year. Can you or they not boot up their app twice a year to check on your squads. Or in the case of your brother, if he turns up to a tournament without checking his own list beforehand. That's a little bit stupid, don't you think? I mean, at why is the onus on us to ensure his list is legal? Should he not be checking that beforehand? Especially when the situation is as simple as *press squad builder app of choice on phone and look at list you intend to fly next week.*

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

To me, it seems that the point and upgrade changes just seen are significant enough as to change the very nature of the game. That you will never be able to be sure you understand XWM unless you always have a finger on the pulse.  

If you don't go to tournaments, is that worth the effort?

And yeah, you can use the app to make sure the list i  s legal, and just let it tell you things have changed, but if you care that little about the game are you really that much of a player/XWM hobbyist? As in, spending enough to keep XWM alive?  

Lastly, if you do have to be that dedicated to keep abreast of what XWM The Game actually is from month to month, is casual play dead?

3

What on earth are you on about? I'm pretty sure that if you go to a tourney people keep a finger on the pulse to know what they will be flying against? How is this any different?

As for the app, how is using the tool that was made for the purpose of list building, to list build 'not caring' about the game?

I'm not saying you shouldn't have your opinion, but in MY opinion you are making mountains out of molehills and being extremely petty about things not being your way despite the countless people telling you how EASY it is to track it yet you seem to insist it is a CHORE and an inconvenience that is a travesty to the world!

As someone who generally goes to tournaments just to play what I want and not really do fantastic, how did I get to grips with it all: Open app, oh look at that, some squads over and some squads under. Guess I have some adjusting to do. Oh woe is me...

Dupe post