1 hour ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Then stop playing those games?

Do you tell people to quit following baseball if they don't like AstroTurf too? I'm talking about identifying long term trends in miniature wargaming. If you didn't play before X-Wing, how much do you really know about those trends?

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Part of FFG's success is that they have made war gaming a lot more approachable and accessible to a wider swath of casual gamers.

I'm unclear what was so inaccessible about it before. Nowadays, when a new kid can't make informed decisions during the games cause they don't memorize countless abstract keyword synergies and abstract order of operation tweaks, I wouldn't call that "more accessible".

I find people don't make a distinction between math and complexity. If a game makes you use basic math people say it's complicated. But no matter how labyrinthine a system of keywords and color codes gets, it's lauded as being streamlined and easy as long as there aren't numbers-based stats.

I'm not singling out FFG. I'm talking about them, Games Workshop, Privateer Press... all the big games have had this weird influence where an overlapping keyword(s) is way more important than, say, interlocking fields of fire. It can be done well within a game, but too much eventually leads to rules bloat, weird loopholes, lack of verisimilitude, etc.

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Having different rules for different uniforms makes the units immediately distinct in their capabilities and as someone else said earlier their design philosophy is to capture the onscreen 'feel' of the unit

But it doesn't capture the feel of the movies. Such as in the now infamous Ugnaught Swarm. Or how games of X-Wing reportedly stopped seeing any actual X-Wings. You can start out with stats that mimic the feel of the movies and rapidly erode the whole thing. Basically with too many overlapping special effects. Overlapping bonuses and stuff have always been around but now games are getting choked and clogged up with them.

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single design unit styles

It's more the single design ARMY styles that I don't like. Want to play this faction or that? Better play it as the ever changing design team currently thinks is right for that faction, or you won't be supported.

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It's easy, straightforward and gets people interested in the hobby with a well known set of IP's.

That's not new though. There's been lots of popular IP-based, rules-lite games over the decades.

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Now that I've been playing their games for a few years I'm looking at branching out into other more esoteric war games.

Like what?

Apps have their own issues. Take a looong break, blow the dust off your favorite game, and find out the app doesn't work on the new IOS and you'll yearn for a book and some stat cards.

Design styles go in and out of fashion in gaming, I happen to enjoy the current one in war games, and that's just my opinion.

Play the games you enjoy, don't play the games you don't enjoy.

46 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Design styles go in and out of fashion in gaming, I happen to enjoy the current one in war games, and that's just my opinion.

If you didn't play before 2012, and mainly stick to one publisher of one IP, how do you make a meaningful comparison?

I play the games with model lines I like. I think Legion is the "best in show" for a mainstream scifi model line out there right now. Indie scifi model lines have never had the proliferation of their fantasy and historical counterparts, and the other mainstream scifi model lines (40k, Warmachine) have got serious problems nowadays.

12 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

If you didn't play before 2012, and mainly stick to one publisher of one IP, how do you make a meaningful comparison?

I've been gaming (D&D, board games, war board games etc.) since middle school and during that time I've always had friend groups that included at least a few war gamers (mostly GW but a few other things too). They've tried to get me into the hobby before but it wasn't until X-wing that I found a game that really clicked with me in all the right ways (plus I didn't want to paint at the time, ironic now that I spend most of my hobby time painting). Legion and Armada appealed to me because of how closely they matched the X-Wing design philosphy.

Who knows? Maybe when I try getting into more war games of different design philosophies I'll enjoy them more. Any you would recommend?

4 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I've been gaming (D&D, board games, war board games etc.) since middle school and during that time I've always had friend groups that included at least a few war gamers (mostly GW but a few other things too). They've tried to get me into the hobby before but it wasn't until X-wing that I found a game that really clicked with me in all the right ways (plus I didn't want to paint at the time, ironic now that I spend most of my hobby time painting). Legion and Armada appealed to me because of how closely they matched the X-Wing design philosphy.

Who knows? Maybe when I try getting into more war games of different design philosophies I'll enjoy them more. Any you would recommend?

If you like D&D and want to try more wargames, Frostgrave is easy to find and you only need like 12 assorted medieval humans, a couple wizards, and a few dog minis for your army. It uses a D20 per player, and an ordinary ruler. A handful of mini treasure chests is also thematic, but you could use any sort of counters. The real cost of Frostgrave revolves around building lots of scenery and collecting monsters for random encounters. It uses whatever ancient, medieval, or fantasy figures you want it to use: just don't use a crossbow armed model as a model with greatsword or something confusing like that. If you want to play non-humans, just pick models that make sense for the broad troop type they represent. Though now through expansions, there are some "official" non-human armies to play.

People say I'm crazy but I still recommend DBA. It really captures the feel of ancient and medieval battles in period writing. Every player gets 12 bases of minis (usually 15mm size) for their army. Typically it's like 4 spearmen, 2 knights, 1 chariot, etc. to a base. Even though the collection of actual models isn't huge, wheeling those little formations around (combined with the command and victory system) you feel like you're commanding a Roman Legion, or the pharoah's army, etc. In addition to your 12 units of troops, you paint a Camp and a unit of Camp Followers. This is a small fun civilian models and piece of scenery which does have the potential to impact the outcome of the game. You can play it online too. I think their rules for some weapons are unrealistic but no game is perfect. If you know what your army contains, you can go online and usually order enough 15mm guys to make your DBA army for like... $50. If you use plastic Arfix type guys you can make armies for much less.

Warmachine and 40k have gotten totally opaque. I have no idea how new people can get into them. I tried, pretty hard, to get into Warmachine twice circa 2015 and couldn't break in. If I hadn't started 40k as a kid I have no idea how I'd approach it now. I don't really recommend them.

Science Fiction wargaming seems to be being stifled by the popularity of a few big games. But Historicals are undergoing this crazy jump in model availability that also lends itself nicely to various fantasy campaign settings.

Kings of War is.... OK. Ish. I'm not crazy about it but it's the closest thing I can find to what I'm looking for in a big fantasy game at the moment. The field is loaded with great fantasy skirmish games right now though. Dragon Rampant might be worth your time checking out, and it lends itself to houseruling if you aren't having fun. It's a fantasy or historical system that uses about 40 minis per side in loose squads. It was spawned from Lion Rampant, and the success of these two resulted in many other similar games being written for various other settings.

Muskets & Tomahawks is really fun, I love the command/order system for it but it sold out of it's initial print run and they refuse to make more for some reason. My buddy got a copy and I painted an army for it, we've played it a fair bit but I can't get my own copy of the rules

I would not really recommend Field of Glory, Warhammer Ancients, assorted GW spinoff games, or old Star Wars D6 based on what you said you've liked and not liked. The D20 games, while fun to collect, sort of died under the weight of their own rules expansions. The cooperative, licensed, DnD boardgames such as Ravenloft are a lot of fun, come with tons of cool minis for the money, but frankly the rules are garbage. But they're still fun. I won't speak of games I've only gotten to read and not play. Or of games I can't remember right now.

14 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

So you think there SHOULD only be one way to play an army list, and that only variations on one troop type IS good variety?

That... that is the exact opposite of what I said.

Glad you guys are finally finding some commpn ground.

I just realized I forgot purge troopers from Star Wars Uprising.

27 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

Glad you guys are finally finding some commpn ground.

if one were to get the high ground the other still would likely not give up.

2 hours ago, buckero0 said:

Glad you guys are finally finding some commpn ground.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!