Hi was just wondering if this can be done,

I have a list with a U wing and some B wings

If the u wing has Jyn Erso crew

would that enable the b-wings to instead of focus linking a barrel roll to change the focus to an evade? And still do the linked barrel roll?

Thank you

15 minutes ago, Jedijones95 said:

Hi was just wondering if this can be done,

I have a list with a U wing and some B wings

If the u wing has Jyn Erso crew

would that enable the b-wings to instead of focus linking a barrel roll to change the focus to an evade? And still do the linked barrel roll?

Thank you

Yes. Jyn replaces the token, not the action itself.

Excellent thanks very much I haven’t played the build yet and didn’t want to do something I couldn’t, thanks again

4 hours ago, Jedijones95 said:

Excellent thanks very much I haven’t played the build yet and didn’t want to do something I couldn’t, thanks again

I believe @Hiemfire is mistaken. The first page of the RRG, under Replacement Effects, uses the Jyn Erson example. If you use her ability, it will not trigger a linked action.

26 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I believe @Hiemfire is mistaken. The first page of the RRG, under Replacement Effects, uses the Jyn Erson example. If you use her ability, it will not trigger a linked action.

nope, he's 100% right. jyn erso replaces the token being gained, not the action itself. you can still link your focus action into a barrel roll with a b-wing, but instead of gaining a focus token from your focus action, you gain an evade token through jyn ersos ability.

4 hours ago, meffo said:

nope, he's 100% right. jyn erso replaces the token being gained, not the action itself. you can still link your focus action into a barrel roll with a b-wing, but instead of gaining a focus token from your focus action, you gain an evade token through jyn ersos ability.

Below is a direct quote from the RRG. I think this goes against what you and @Hiemfire have stated. Italics were added.

• When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as
having not occurred.

◊ For example, Jyn Erso’s ability says “If a friendly ship at range 0–3
would gain a focus token, it may gain 1 evade token instead.” If this
ability is used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains a focus token
cannot trigger.

I'm pretty sure this covers the exact situation the OP asked about.

Yes, but note the wording: "after a ship gains a focus token". The linked action triggers "after you perform a focus action". Changing the token you received doesn't impact the action you performed, and the linked action doesn't care that you received the token, only that you performed the action.

3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Below is a direct quote from the RRG. I think this goes against what you and @Hiemfire have stated. Italics were added.

• When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as
having not occurred.

◊ For example, Jyn Erso’s ability says “If a friendly ship at range 0–3
would gain a focus token, it may gain 1 evade token instead.” If this
ability is used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains a focus token
cannot trigger.

I'm pretty sure this covers the exact situation the OP asked about.

I tend to think that the entry in the RRG you refer to is done for future effects that trigger after a ship gains a focus token and is meant to prevent design failures. There is no effect in the game yet that triggers after you gain a focus token.

Keep also in mind linked actions are "Ship abilities" not "effects" as clearly demonstrated in the appendix examples of the RRG.

For reference, the text of the abilities in question

Focus:
When a ship performs the [focus] action, it gains one focus token.

Jyn Erso:
If a friendly ship at range 0-3 would gain a focus token, it may gain 1 evade token instead.

----------

Jyn's ability is a replacement effect, yes. That is absolutely correct. However, the word 'action' does not appear anywhere in Jyn Erso's ability. You are still performing a focus action , even though the standard effect (gain one focus token ) of that action has been replaced. Since you have performed a focus action, you can therefore perform a linked action off of that, or do anything else that triggers after performing a focus action , such as Perceptive Copilot, for example.

12 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Below is a direct quote from the RRG. I think this goes against what you and @Hiemfire have stated. Italics were added.

• When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as
having not occurred.

◊ For example, Jyn Erso’s ability says “If a friendly ship at range 0–3
would gain a focus token, it may gain 1 evade token instead.” If this
ability is used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains a focus token
cannot trigger.

I'm pretty sure this covers the exact situation the OP asked about.

it does not cover what the OP asked about at all. the effect from the focus action has not occurred, no. that has no impact on this interaction what so ever, though.

this is what the RR has to say about linked actions:

LINKED ACTION
Linked actions allow a ship to perform an action after performing another action. Linked actions can appear on a ship or upgrade card in the linked action bar just to the right of the action bar. After the ship performs the action from its action bar, it can perform the attached action listed on the linked action bar.
• After a ship performs an action with an attached linked action, if the player wants to resolve the linked action, it is added to the ability queue.
• A linked action can be performed after performing the action it is attached to even if that action was granted by a card effect or other game effect.

the result of the first action is not of relevance, unless it fails. focus actions cannot fail. adding a linked action to the ability queue after having resolved a focus action does not trigger off of a ship gaining a focus token.

9 hours ago, meffo said:

it does not cover what the OP asked about at all. the effect from the focus action has not occurred, no. that has no impact on this interaction what so ever, though.

this is what the RR has to say about linked actions:

LINKED ACTION
Linked actions allow a ship to perform an action after performing another action. Linked actions can appear on a ship or upgrade card in the linked action bar just to the right of the action bar. After the ship performs the action from its action bar, it can perform the attached action listed on the linked action bar.
• After a ship performs an action with an attached linked action, if the player wants to resolve the linked action, it is added to the ability queue.
• A linked action can be performed after performing the action it is attached to even if that action was granted by a card effect or other game effect.

the result of the first action is not of relevance, unless it fails. focus actions cannot fail. adding a linked action to the ability queue after having resolved a focus action does not trigger off of a ship gaining a focus token.

Your arguments are convincing and I will concede. But let me explain my thinking based on the card wording and the RRG.

Jyn' s ability makes no reference to how the focus token is gained. It could be gained by an action or an ability like Dreis's. So the timing could be outside of the recipient's activation. Now for the RRG. I'm on a Kindle so no cut and paste.

If you look at the italicized portion above. If this ability is used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains a focus token cannot trigger. There's no mention of an action here either. The effect we are looking at triggering after we gain the focus token is the linked barrel roll. We performed the Focus Action, that focus token was changed to an evade and now we're looking at the italicized text above. The barrel roll triggers after the focus token is received.

Well, that's why I said the linked barrel roll would fail. Jyn Erso's ability modifies the conditions under which a Focus Action can be linked to a Barrel Roll Action. If you never gain the focus token, you can't barrel roll after (not) gaining it.

Part of my argument also omes from the Golden Rule on the first page of the RRG.

48 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Jyn Erso's ability modifies the conditions under which a Focus        Action  can be linked to a Barrel Roll Action. If you never gain the focus token, you can't barrel roll after (not) gaining       it   . 

And this is where you're still wrong. The linked action doesn't CARE about tokens. It only cares about actions.

You're getting hung up on that example which isn't actually relevant, because nothing is triggering off of receiving a focus token .

It's like saying a Starviper can't link a focus off of a barrel roll because a replacement effect (its ship ability) changed the type of template it used so it didn't really perform a barrel roll.

The Starviper's linked focus doesn't care what template you use to perform the barrel roll, and the B-wing doesn't care what token you end up with after performing a focus action.

26 minutes ago, lordvorkon said:

And this is where you're still wrong. The linked action doesn't CARE about tokens. It only cares about actions.

You're getting hung up on that example which isn't actually relevant, because nothing is triggering off of receiving a focus token .

It's like saying a Starviper can't link a focus off of a barrel roll because a replacement effect (its ship ability) changed the type of template it used so it didn't really perform a barrel roll.

The Starviper's linked focus doesn't care what template you use to perform the barrel roll, and the B-wing doesn't care what token you end up with after performing a focus action.

Reread the section on Golden Rules then tell me Erso has no effect.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Reread the section on Golden Rules then tell me Erso has no effect.

I have. Multiple times. You've certainly quoted it at us enough.

It still doesn't mean what you think it means.

Jyn's ability does not say "if you would take a focus action, you may take an evade action instead." If it did, you would be correct in your argument, because it wouldno longer be a focus action.

What it says is you can receive a different kind of token from taking a focus action. The focus action is what allows the linked action, not the fact that a focus action gives you a focus token by default.

3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

The effect we are looking at triggering after we gain the focus token is the linked barrel roll.

Think that rules are modified by Jyn in this way:

FOCUS Pilots can focus to concentrate and expand their combat prowess. When a ship performs the Focus action, it gains one evade token.

instead of

FOCUS Pilots can focus to concentrate and expand their combat prowess. When a ship performs the Focus action, it gains one focus token.

So the Focus action is performed and complete (not failed), and you can activate effects that trigger after you "perform a Focus action" (like linked ones), but you cannot activate effects that trigger after you "gain a focus token".

The FOCUS has already been performed.

So, yes. Jyn modifies it into an Evade. By the way, with perceptive copilot she gets to give them either two evades or a Focus and an Evade. It's a very cool trick that makes the U-Wing shockingly hard to kill.

On 1/29/2019 at 6:27 AM, Captain Lackwit said:

The FOCUS has already been performed.

So, yes. Jyn modifies it into an Evade. By the way, with perceptive copilot she gets to give them either two evades or a Focus and an Evade. It's a very cool trick that makes the U-Wing shockingly hard to kill.

I'm sorry to bring this up again but something is still bothering me. How do you explain the second bullet point under replacement effects? Basically it says that if the replacement effect resolves the replaced effect is treated as not having occurred.

Honestly, how hard is this to understand.

Performing a focus action and getting a focus action are not the same thing.

You perform a focus action, once you have said "I'll perform a focus action" your focus action is complete.

Jyn then replaces the usual focus token with an evade token, but you have still completed a focus action. (If you hadn't, jyn wouldn't have been able to trigger).

Because you performed the focus action you can trigger the linked roll.

If it makes it easier to follow, actually out the token down. Put a focus next to your ship, then say that you are using Jyn and change the focus to an evade.

3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I'm sorry to bring this up again but something is still bothering me. How do you explain the second bullet point under replacement effects? Basically it says that if the replacement effect resolves the replaced effect is treated as not having occurred.

Let's use a different angle of approach to try to explain it to ya.

First, let's take a look at two seemingly unrelated cards, i.e.

Aiden Cracken: After you perform an attack, you may choose 1 friendly ship at range 1. That ship may perform an action, treating it as red.

Double Edge: After you perform a or attack that misses, you may perform a bonus attack using a different weapon.

Alright, so what's my point with them? Well, many in-game effects may trigger off the same general play scenario, but look for different specific parts of this scenario, or different outcomes.

Both of the pilots quoted deal with post-attack timing, but one has narrower restrictions than the other.

If we now had a virtual, neutral replacement effect available which says: "When your attack misses, it hits instead*", let's see its interaction with the pilots above. It replaces one attack outcome with another.

So, would the replacement effect when applied prevent Double Edge's ability from triggering? It sure would! It has to miss to use it. But per rules you've referenced before, we treat the miss as if it has never occurred.

Would it prevent Airen from "coordination"? Well, not really, as his ability doesn't really care about the final outcome of the attack as long as an attack has been performed.

And now back to the main scenario - your rule knowledge is strong my friend, but you fail to notice certain nuance. An in-game effect that "scans" the table for a specific scenario doesn't have to "scan" for a specific outcome of this scenario. In my example it was the difference of attacking and hitting the defender with the attack. For the thread, it's the difference of performing a focus and being assigned a focus token through performing a focus action. And being assigned a focus token, period.

Linked Action may be performed after the preceding action is performed, whatever the final outcome of it may be - Cracken-Style. While with Jyn we've replaced being assigned a focus token with being assigned an evade token, we still have been assigned it for something, that something being a focus action.

Per RR example, no ability triggering off being assigned a focus token will trigger after Jyn, as Cracken doesn't care if he hits, Linked Action doesn't care if you got a tokem, as long as the action was performed. Focus Token =/= Focus Action for sake of triggers.

And that no card triggers off being assigned a focus token is a lie, because we discuss one here! It's Jyn. Now look, the replacement effects rule is why one cannot induce an infinite loop of operations with Jyn. She activates whenever you are assigned a focus token. Using her, we've replaced being assigned a focus token with being assigned an evade token and we forget about the former - and if we hadn't, or if Jyn was triggering off being assigned any green token, she would now activate again. And then again. And then again. And... This doesn't happen due to replacement effect rule.

Hope this helps you out shine some new light on the problem as it's important to understand the common rules, not just obey them because you have to.

Cheers!

* Silly, I know, but just for the sake of argument.

@Stoneface here's a question for you, hopefully shedding some light onto how the action is separate from the token.

An A-wing moves and performs a focus action, and a nearby jyn makes it gain an evade token instead.

Later in the same turn the A-wing is coordinated another action. Is it allowed to do a focus action? What about doing an evade action?

(A: It can't do a focus action as it's already done it, regardless of it's outcome. E ven though it has an evade token, it hasn't done an evade action yet this turn so evade is an eligible choice.)

40 minutes ago, ryfterek said:

Let's use a different angle of approach to try to explain it to ya.

First, let's take a look at two seemingly unrelated cards, i.e.

Aiden Cracken: After you perform an attack, you may choose 1 friendly ship at range 1. That ship may perform an action, treating it as red.

Double Edge: After you perform a or attack that misses, you may perform a bonus attack using a different weapon.

Alright, so what's my point with them? Well, many in-game effects may trigger off the same general play scenario, but look for different specific parts of this scenario, or different outcomes.

Both of the pilots quoted deal with post-attack timing, but one has narrower restrictions than the other.

If we now had a virtual, neutral replacement effect available which says: "When your attack misses, it hits instead*", let's see its interaction with the pilots above. It replaces one attack outcome with another.

So, would the replacement effect when applied prevent Double Edge's ability from triggering? It sure would! It has to miss to use it. But per rules you've referenced before, we treat the miss as if it has never occurred.

Would it prevent Airen from "coordination"? Well, not really, as his ability doesn't really care about the final outcome of the attack as long as an attack has been performed.

And now back to the main scenario - your rule knowledge is strong my friend, but you fail to notice certain nuance. An in-game effect that "scans" the table for a specific scenario doesn't have to "scan" for a specific outcome of this scenario. In my example it was the difference of attacking and hitting the defender with the attack. For the thread, it's the difference of performing a focus and being assigned a focus token through performing a focus action. And being assigned a focus token, period.

Linked Action may be performed after the preceding action is performed, whatever the final outcome of it may be - Cracken-Style. While with Jyn we've replaced being assigned a focus token with being assigned an evade token, we still have been assigned it for something, that something being a focus action.

Per RR example, no ability triggering off being assigned a focus token will trigger after Jyn, as Cracken doesn't care if he hits, Linked Action doesn't care if you got a tokem, as long as the action was performed. Focus Token =/= Focus Action for sake of triggers.

And that no card triggers off being assigned a focus token is a lie, because we discuss one here! It's Jyn. Now look, the replacement effects rule is why one cannot induce an infinite loop of operations with Jyn. She activates whenever you are assigned a focus token. Using her, we've replaced being assigned a focus token with being assigned an evade token and we forget about the former - and if we hadn't, or if Jyn was triggering off being assigned any green token, she would now activate again. And then again. And then again. And... This doesn't happen due to replacement effect rule.

Hope this helps you out shine some new light on the problem as it's important to understand the common rules, not just obey them because you have to.

Cheers!

* Silly, I know, but just for the sake of argument.

I appreciate your patience! It's not easy trying to explain something that carries a nuance to someone that's literal most of the time.

Ok, I just had the "Aha" moment! Thank You very much! I doubt I would've been able to figure this out without your help!

13 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

@Stoneface here's a question for you, hopefully shedding some light onto how the action is separate from the token.

An A-wing moves and performs a focus action, and a nearby jyn makes it gain an evade token instead.

Later in the same turn the A-wing is coordinated another action. Is it allowed to do a focus action? What about doing an evade action?

(A: It can't do a focus action as it's already done it, regardless of it's outcome. E ven though it has an evade token, it hasn't done an evade action yet this turn so evade is an eligible choice.)

Actually this would've been very useful. @ryfterek got me thinking about something else that triggered the "Aha" moment. I still think the example could've been better worded to convey that nuance.

tl;dr any time you would receive a focus, Jyn can proc.

2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

tl;dr any time you would receive a focus, Jyn can proc.

Which would be a great TLDR if that's what the original question was asking.