Yesterday we had a dispute about "Dual Shot" and now I hope someone can help us. If I use "Dual Shot" with two semi-/full automatic pistols can I fire them in semi-/full automatic or just singel (one round per pistol)?

I am pretty sure that you can only fire them as a single shot for Dual Shot. I don't have the book in front of me but the errata says you can use the Red Dot laser sight with it, which would imply single fire only

This could be mantionde because I dont have to fire semi/full and when I shoot singel I can use the laser sight.

It says directly in the text "Each Gun Fires Once", meaning you can't get semi/full auto off on the shot. It IS still useful for if you only got one shot left and want to ignore some soak and do some damage.

Only single-shots.

The benefit of this talent is that you do not get the -20 penalty to hit from your off-hand, and the targets Toughness bonus only gets subtracted once form the total damage done, rather than from each hit if applied separately.

As such it is useful against targets with high Toughness, and mostly used before you get Talents such as Ambi-Dextrous and Gunslinger (these reduce the penalty to dual-wielding and so the added damage from auto-fire outweighs the benefits from Dual-shot)

Thank you for your help so far, but I´m still not convinced.

Kylen:
I haven´t found the description "each gun fires once" neither in the core rule book nor in the errata 3.0. Can you tell me where you have seen it?

Darth Smeg:
The benefits of "Dual Shot" are clear to us. Our dispute is about the combination of thouse benefits with semi-/full auto.
An example of how we play it:
You use two Autopistols, both in full auto, and Dual Shot. One attack role is made and the defender can dodge (you have to achive degrees success due to the nature of autofire, but one successfull dodge negates the whole attack). If you hit you get one Dual Shot and a additional Dual Shot for each degree of success to the maximum of the rate of fire.

We are now looking for a rule that forbids that (if such a rule exists).

I think the question isn´t answered easily and I will use the "Rules Question" function. As soon as I got an answer I will tell you. But if someone can help us in this thread please do so.

I would just find the link to the rules questions on the FFG page. Ask them, they always respond quickly, usually within the day depending on what part of the world you live in. It just seems that it would be pretty ridiculous if you could fire full auto with Dual Shot. I didn't get a chance to look at the book last night, but it just might be a problem of rules as written over rules as intended

The point of Dual Shot is to provide damage against high-toughness opponents - and the tradeoff is the restriction to single shots.

As such it is useful against targets with high Toughness, and mostly used before you get Talents such as Ambi-Dextrous and Gunslinger (these reduce the penalty to dual-wielding and so the added damage from auto-fire outweighs the benefits from Dual-shot)

When it comes to certain friendly TB15+ guys, I'll take Dual Shot over Full Auto every day.

While neither Talent description or Errata expressly say you cannot use auto-bursts, they both use the word "shots": " On a success, you hit the target with both shots. "

I'd hardly call a hail of some 12 bullets "both shots"

Here is also some wording from the errata leading me to believe that it is only a single shot

If you hit, the target’s armour gets applied as
normal to both hits individually, but Toughness only counts
once against the combined damage rolls of both hits. A
single successful Dodge Test from the target will avoid both
shots.

It would seem to me it says "both hits" would only be from single shots from each gun

Greetings.

I asked for an official statement as promised and here is what I got:

Hello there!

Dual Shot only works with a single shot from both weapons. There is an
expanded and corrected version of Dual Shot in the Dark Heresy errata
document on the Dark Heresy support page.

Thank you again for your help, especially the last comments where realy helpful.

Quint

Quint said:

Could you cite the source? Would you please provide a rules page reference?

The current errata that I read (April 2009) does not state explicity under the dual shot talent or in the Q&A the limitation of single fire.

If there is a more current one please post it.

We ran into this last weekend and I thought that damage (player character with dual storm bolters, all 16 shots hit) was excessive. I was one of the players BTW.

Tiltowait said:

From the 3.0 errata (April 2009), page 12, bottom of the left column:

When using the Dual Shot talent, you can wield two pistols and
?re them both at the same time at the same target. You make a
single attack roll, and if it is successful you hit with both shots . The
target’s armour will subtract damage from both shots individually.
However, after the effect of armour has been calculated, the target
will only subtract his toughness bonus once from the combined
damage of both shots. Doing this is a Full Action.

Given that it specifies both shots, and FFG have said single shot only, I'd say that anyone wanting to use dual shot with semi/full auto fire should justify how "both shots" can apply when you are firing at least 4 shots.

Also note that it specifies pistols. So even if you accept that it works with multiple shot attacks, the storm bolter is still excluded.

Bilateralrope said:

Okay I've had several ppl say "FFG said."

Where is the post made by FFG? Please!

Just because it says both shots, does not necessarily means you cannot substitute both bursts. Doesn't mean you CAN either...as I mentioned I was in the 'dual shot is not meant for semi/full auto' camp. I'm trying to bring this up to the GM in a way he can cite the rules.

Okay I've had several ppl say "FFG said."

Where is the post made by FFG? Please!

Quint posted the reply in his post. If you don't trust him, use this link to ask them yourself .

Just because it says both shots, does not necessarily means you cannot substitute both bursts. Doesn't mean you CAN either...as I mentioned I was in the 'dual shot is not meant for semi/full auto' camp. I'm trying to bring this up to the GM in a way he can cite the rules.

Lets look at the points against semi/full auto:

- Specific mention of "both shots".

- Specific mention of a red-dot sight, an item that only helps with single shot. If you allow semi/fully automatic fire then a player could mix pistols and apply both the fully automatic fire and red-dot bonus at the same time.

- It is an overpowered combination.

What points are there in favour of allowing it ?

Bilateralrope said:

As an aside from Dual Shot specificall, I find the normal firing twin pistols in semi-auto mode a bit overpowered and as such HR'd it out. If I can do it with two pistols, why not with two basic weapons with recoil gloves /rant

Charmander said:

I can see you have yet to face a player's Guardsman at rank 6+ using Lightning Attack, Blademaster and a Great Weapon Holy Tons of Damage Batman!