Just check the pictures in that blog.
https://midwestscrub.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/triple-upsilons-and-the-rule-of-four/
There are a few ships that have a chance to escape, but it is fairly unlikely.
Illegal Squad at Phoenix / Trip Upsilon (no relation)
1 hour ago, MalusCalibur said:Maybe I'm missing something here....but how exactly are the two lead Upsilons both getting guaranteed shots on that first round? Yes, they deploy at IN6, but unless you deploy all of your ships in one place they can't possibly cover all of them, and surely if you don't fly towards them you can escape and move around them? They'll be telegraphing their target by locking at their actual Initiative, so anything decently fast and/or agile would surely be able to get away (out of range/arc entirely of at least one of them)
Image by @VanderLegion
You just can't outrun it. Not even Kylo. One ship will get hit by most likely 2 attacks with focus+lock, at below range 3 (maybe even at 1!).
And to give you an idea of the tokens: image from the midwestscrub blog
I'm not saying we all have to panic. But not knowing how to deal with it will lead to a lot of complaints about how OP the squad is. And these complaints will be based on an amazing win record. Not because the squad is a new FinalForm or GhostFenn, but because it is so different that you need to have a good plan going into the game. Because your instincts will fail you
Edited by GreenDragoon1 hour ago, MalusCalibur said:Maybe I'm missing something here....but how exactly are the two lead Upsilons both getting guaranteed shots on that first round? Yes, they deploy at IN6, but unless you deploy all of your ships in one place they can't possibly cover all of them, and surely if you don't fly towards them you can escape and move around them? They'll be telegraphing their target by locking at their actual Initiative, so anything decently fast and/or agile would surely be able to get away (out of range/arc entirely of at least one of them), and then the onus is on a trio of lumbering shuttles to chase them, each only able to ignore obstacles twice and with no capacity to turn directly around?
Seems to me that the only way the list works is if you joust it. But I havn't played against the 'Dorm Storm' since 1st ed so perhaps things are different now.
These two in concert:
The Ups dial and base size makes for closing the last bit of distance fairly easy.
I was unaware of that triple upsilon list. I hadn't really paid too much attention to First Order and Resistance. But it is the same old story isn't it? Create something that completely disregards some fundamental premise or premises in this case of the game and things get ugly.
Did they just not think it was a problem because, "who has three upsilons?" After 25 years has no designer learned that lesson yet? Or did they do it because that is the 1st Ed. SKU with the most backstock everywhere? And you only need one conversion kit for that.
They broke Star Wars with tracking through hyperspace and now a card based on that has "broken" X-wing. Charming. I was certainly short on reasons to hate the sequels.
That isn't going to last past the points change today is it?
37 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:I'm not saying we all have to panic. But not knowing how to deal with it will lead to a lot of complaints about how OP the squad is. And these complaints will be based on an amazing win record. Not because the squad is a new FinalForm or GhostFenn, but because it is so different that you need to have a good plan going into the game. Because your instincts will fail you
I'm still trying to figure out a valid strategy myself. I don't like my solutions so far, as it's all list building... That should not be the answer.
1 minute ago, Frimmel said:That isn't going to last past the points change today is it?
I see the potential it lasts past today... Relatively recent arrival on the meta scene, it may have been unnoticed by FFG.
6 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:...well personally speaking, I'd still expect to have a squad sheet handy.
Things that are going to govern a competition need to be a bit more "energetic" about enforcement than a single player's personal expectations. Even setting aside nefarious intentions players make mistakes. And according to the rumor mill we are about to have multiple revisions of the points list. I know from personal experience that multiple revisions in the wild leads to mistakes.
They have given no indications as to how the app or web-based squad-builder is going to handle our already existing lists if they become illegal. And a lot of things about the app and web-based squad-builder that were just inconvenient before start to approach crippling.
8 minutes ago, Frimmel said:They have give n no indications as to how the app or web-based squad-builder is going to han dl e our already existing lists if they become illegal
You can save illegal lists on the app. It just turns the number red and says “201/200.”
Just scroll through your saved lists and check the number of points on each of them (you don’t have to click on them), and click edit when you come across lists that need fixing.
6 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:You can save illegal lists on the app. It just turns the number red and says “201/200.”
Just scroll through your saved lists and check the number of points on each of them (you don’t have to click on them), and click edit when you come across lists that need fixing.
It does. My bad. Not as bad as I made it out.
There is still no note taking ability or means of revision tracking for lists though.
9 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:You can save illegal lists on the app. It just turns the number red and says “201/200.”
Just scroll through your saved lists and check the number of points on each of them (you don’t have to click on them), and click edit when you come across lists that need fixing.
Do we know that saved lists are calculated every time the app opens, or will we need to edit them to refresh their point values?
4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Do we know that saved lists are calculated every time the app opens, or will we need to edit them to refresh their point values?
We will soon.
5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Do we know that saved lists are calculated every time the app opens, or will we need to edit them to refresh their point values?
1 minute ago, LagJanson said:We will soon.
Yeah, my answer was assuming the points change doesn’t crash the whole site 😂
7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Do we know that saved lists are calculated every time the app opens, or will we need to edit them to refresh their point values?
There is also no indication for what happens if an upgrade slot is removed. Do lists with the ship and upgrade just "lose" points? If saved lists are not calculated each time you log in it seems likely you will need to edit them to see if they now have upgrades a ship can no longer equip.
Edited by FrimmelJust now, SpiderMana said:
Yeah, my answer was assuming the points change doesn’t crash the whole site 😂
$5 says the app/site takes a week to update.
Somehow mitigating or avoiding that opening volley is going to be the key. They can't replicate that token stack ever again. They can't turn and they get in their own way with large bases and poor dials.
That said, I don't know how to beat it on the table either. Tried messing with my own positioning with Resistance Han and flying an Eval party bus off the board. Tried absorbing one shot with Iden, tried spreading its damage with Biggs and selflessness. Certainly tried running from the joust, but that really does not seem like the right solution.
Pretty sure that the fix will be to make Hyperspace Tracking Data unique or at least unable to generate that absurd token stack for three ships. Each ship only gets one token max for example.
Not sure it will be enough, or I should say that variance and the willingness to skip a reinforce in favor of coordinating an offensive mod instead will still allow that opening round to hurt my list badly enough to make the game a real uphill battle.
1 minute ago, SpiderMana said:Yeah, my answer was assuming the points change doesn’t crash the whole site 😂
What, you mean having us all on the FFG page constantly hitting F5 is a bad thing?
52 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:These two in concert:
[pictures]
The Ups dial and base size makes for closing the last bit of distance fairly easy.
I'm fully aware of how it works, mechanically. What I don't understand is why it works.
1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:You just can't outrun it. Not even Kylo. One ship will get hit by most likely 2 attacks with focus+lock, at below range 3 (maybe even at 1!).
And to give you an idea of the tokens: image from the midwestscrub blog
I'm not saying we all have to panic. But not knowing how to deal with it will lead to a lot of complaints about how OP the squad is. And these complaints will be based on an amazing win record. Not because the squad is a new FinalForm or GhostFenn, but because it is so different that you need to have a good plan going into the game. Because your instincts will fail you
Looking at those examples...I still don't see it. There's a huge area where one could escape to (in the latter) where only one of the shuttles is shooting, at Range 3. Again, I feel like most ships could easily flee the initial engagement and force the Upsilons to use their terrible dial and limited Collision Detector charges to try and chase them - and no turn after that initial one is going to have the same level of tokens to use. The Upsilons have low Initiative and no post-dial reposition capability, so a lot of ships are going to be able to dodge their arcs. That's not even getting started on IN6 ships that, against a list with a single point as a bid, can still deploy after the shuttles (ensuring they can't possibly be caught by the alpha joust), and move after them too.
Again, as strong as the initial joust is for the shuttles, I can't see how it could ever be consistently successful unless the opponent is flying towards them.
I've flown against this exact list archetype in 1st Ed, and I cannot understand what has apparently changed so fundamentally between then and now that a gimmick list that might catch out unsuspecting players is suddenly this meta terror that can't be avoided.
20 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:Looking at those examples...I still don't see it. There's a huge area where one could escape to (in the latter) where only one of the shuttles is shooting, at Range 3.
You don't have to believe it. The second image was just to show the tokens.
28 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:You don't have to believe it. The second image was just to show the tokens.
And what was the first image showing? A mat with no obstacles, no indication of what steps lead to the various ship positions, which ship images belonged to which turns etc?
Neither of them has provided anything that shows me why this list is apparently so horrifying when the only thing that's realistically changed for it since 1st ed is Tavson. Again, I havn't played against it since then, so perhaps that's what it takes - but thus far all it seems to have is a potent alpha joust that is far from guaranteed to do significant damage.
4 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:And what was the first image showing? A mat with no obstacles, no indication of what steps lead to the various ship positions, which ship images belonged to which turns etc?
Neither of them has provided anything that shows me why this list is apparently so horrifying when the only thing that's realistically changed for it since 1st ed is Tavson. Again, I havn't played against it since then, so perhaps that's what it takes - but thus far all it seems to have is a potent alpha joust that is far from guaranteed to do significant damage.
Did you read the blog?
1 minute ago, NABLA_OPERATOR said:Did you read the blog?
Yes. It shows, quite rightly, that if you joust the Upsilons you will come off worse. It doesn't at all mention how you can blunt that alpha joust by reducing the quality and number of those opening shots, where all the tokens will be present, nor go into any detail as to how the Upsilons are going to catch anything after that initial rush.
9 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:And what was the first image showing? A mat with no obstacles, no indication of what steps lead to the various ship positions, which ship images belonged to which turns etc?
Neither of them has provided anything that shows me why this list is apparently so horrifying when the only thing that's realistically changed for it since 1st ed is Tavson. Again, I havn't played against it since then, so perhaps that's what it takes - but thus far all it seems to have is a potent alpha joust that is far from guaranteed to do significant damage.
As I said, you don't have to believe it. Just play against the list and try to run away. I was you, and then someone who actually played it took his time to explain to me why I'm wrong. I was.
Just now, GreenDragoon said:As I said, you don't have to believe it. Just play against the list and try to run away. I was you, and then someone who actually played it took his time to explain to me why I'm wrong. I was.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what he told you, then, rather than being deliberately vague? How the Upsilons can guarantee two full modded shots on whatever they want despite moving first, telegraphing their target, and having both a very limited dial and a finite area of firing arcs that can be moved out of? And how they handle anything else with IN6 and a bid that stretched to more than a single point?
1 hour ago, RebelProfundity said:
Somehow mitigating or avoiding that opening volley is going to be the key. They can't replicate that token stack ever again. They can't turn and they get in their own way with large bases and poor dial s.
Correction, their dial is _not_ poor. It’s got a white 2 hard, which makes it more maneuverable than the other shuttles. 2 hard your way to victory.
it also has white 3 banks. No, the dial is not terrible.
@MalusCalibur it guarantees shots. Period. It deploys after most ships at I6. You set up sideways and it deploys more towards the middle. And if your answer is ‘well spread your ships out’ understand not every list functions if you do this.
I played a tournament against it this week, a variant with Thannison and Phasma. I was the only person not to get tabled by it, each person using different lists and approaches. We wound up tying on MOV, and going Final salvo where he won.
Keep in mind that I was flying a list that was brutal the rest of the times I’ve flown it. No single other game, in the tourney or before, has gone more than 40 minutes, and the only other time I even lost a ship was against Redline, Deathrain, and two Cutlass squadrons during testing that week. Came in second due to the head to head loss.
This list steals other lists lunch money. It will get shots on a target of its choice, there is no avoiding it. And in Hyperspace? Forget it. It invalidates the entire Imperial faction there. Nothing they have can avoid it. Basically it is the ultimate alpha list. And you can not avoid it.
Edited by millertime0591 minute ago, millertime059 said:Correction, their dial is _not_ poor. It’s got a white 2 hard, which makes it more maneuverable than the other shuttles. 2 hard your way to victory.
it also has white 3 banks. No, the dial is not terrible.
@MalusCalibur it guarantees shots. Period. It deploys after most ships at I6. You set up sideways and it deploys more towards the middle. And if your answer is ‘well spread your ships out’ understand not every list functions if you do this.
I played a tournament against it this week, a variant with Thannison and Phasma. I was the only person not to get tabled by it, each person using different lists and approaches. We wound up tying on MOV, and going Final salvo where he won.
Keep in mind that I was flying a list that was brutal the rest of the times I’ve flown it. No single other game has gone more than 40 minutes, and the only other time I even lost a ship was against Redline, Deathrain, and two Cutlass squadrons. Came in second due to the head to head loss.
This list steals other lists lunch money. It will get shots on a target of its choice, there is no avoiding it. And in Hyperspace? Forget it. It invalidates the entire Imperial faction there. Nothing they have can avoid it. Basically it is the ultimate alpha list. And you can not avoid it.
This is just more anecdotal confirmations though, rather than any evidence. Just saying 'oh yeah this list is OP/terrifying/NPE/what have you' is not enough. How is it guaranteeing shots from both lead Upsilons? How is it pursuing anything that does get past it (which just about every IN6 in the game will since they'll have freedom to deploy outside of where the shuttles can trap them)? How is it so much different from the exact same list in 1st ed? Like I said before, the 'Dorm Storm' is not a new concept. So what is so different now, such that it has changed from a silly gimmick list to a practically unbeatable horror? How are those opening shots not being mitigated by moving such that only one shuttle has a shot, possibly at range 3?
I want tangible answers, not just reiterations of the apparent conclusion.
I don't think anybody is trying to be deliberately vague. It's one of those oddities that's hard to actually put in words in a way that fully describes how much it messes with the majority of lists. I dismissed it until I saw it pulverize somebody else. I found myself questioning what I would have done if that had been me, and still cannot answer in a way that isn't "well, I'll bring these specific counters."
Try to spot one of these things on stream. It's not just that they deploy at I6, it's that they look at where you've put your ships and deploy to intercept your future positioning options. You can split your force, but they'll still do their best to delete one ship off the start. Once you're in the hole the pressure is on you to dig yourself back out, and risk getting caught in the overlapping field of arcs. It's a one trick pony, but it's a good trick.