We are starting our Armada League this week and have 12 players participating. While five of us are veterans, the other seven each have less than three games under their belts. Since we are focused on having fun and getting the newer players to learn the game, some of the veterans and I have talked about not allowing veterans to use certain squadrons, commanders, and upgrades when playing against newer players. Of course we went back and forth on what is too powerful or not, but I wanted to see what the community thought to help aid in our list. Additionally, we want to use ships, squadrons, commanders, and upgrades that don't see a lot of play to learn to play these better ourselves, but also to show the newer players what else is out there besides the current meta fleets. Please feel free to add what you think should be off-limits and what you think does not get a lot of play that we should use (and why). Thanks in advance.

(Do Not Use) Slicer Tools - When a player is just learning the game, the last thing they need is some veteran changing their command dials.

(Use) Victory Star Destroyers - We never see these ships in our area and I want to see them more on the table. And if the newer player doesn't want to engage them, it's not like I can chase or outmaneuver them.

If they're still trying to learn mechanics you may wanna exclude ECMs. Considering my local meta, with nearly everyone running ECM, accuracies are highly disregarded. It may be in their benefit to learn how useful they CAN be. Then let them adjust to the local meta as they see fit.

DO NOT USE:

- Strat Advisor: Ships = Activations, SA eliminates this a bit. I would restrict this as it is a very powerful tool.

- Demolisher: Changes how the main rules work.

- Centicore: Infinate Range Relay, technically... its good for veteran players who know how to use it, but its basically the old relay, so I would hold off on using it against new players.

- Yavaris: [insert myriad reasons]

LIMITED USE:

- Ace Squadrons. I would put a cap for all players on Ace Squadrons of 4. To help introduce those mechanics without overwhelming people with gods know how many special effects. 4 is a normal number used by most militaries regarding unit sizes for a reason.

- Large Ships: Dont throw a tripple ISD Motti at a new player...

- Disposible Capacitors: eliminates medium range for one shot. Which is confusing for new players. It was for me at least.

I cant think of anything else right now. But thats what I would do for a new player.

4 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

DO NOT USE:

- Strat Advisor: Ships = Activations, SA eliminates this a bit. I would restrict this as it is a very powerful tool.

- Demolisher: Changes how the main rules work.

- Yavaris: [insert myriad reasons]

Couldn’t agree more. We don’t any ship or combo that has the ability to destroy an ISD in one round.

Maybe handicap expienced players to fewer points and/or fewer upgrades per ship.

Maybe not a requirement but I’d definately try builds using stuff that usually doesn’t see the table. (Cluster bombs!)

20 minutes ago, Tayloraj100 said:

Maybe handicap expienced players to fewer points and/or fewer upgrades per ship.

Maybe not a requirement but I’d definately try builds using stuff that usually doesn’t see the table. (Cluster bombs!)

I’m hesitant to make veterans use fewer points or limit their upgrades per ships because it forces them to optimize with their remaining points or upgrades. Would rather just see lesser used upgrades. Cluster bombs are definitely going in my next list!

1 hour ago, Ling27 said:

Ace Squadrons of 4. To help introduce those mechanics without overwhelming people with gods know how many special effects. 4 is a normal number used by most militaries regarding unit sizes for a reason.

Love this. I personally wouldn’t mind if normal fleet building were limited by this mechanic.

I might even encourage the vets that they can only bring 1 ace. Everything else has to be generic. I don’t know if that would lead into other issues though?

As far as Aces, at least in the lists that the veterans have showed me (for the first round, all newer players are paired with a veteran to help them with the rules and to advise them of their options), no one has more than four. We even briefly discussed having a low-to-medium squadron count, so the newer players get use to seeing enemy squadrons but are not overwhelmed by them.

I played in a relaxed tournament recently that had a "four squadrons max" rule. It was fun and most games went quick. No one brought Yavaris to my surprise. I suggest trying four squads max for one night.

Avenger: my favorite upgrade, the thing hits way too hard for a newbie, even experienced players underestimate it.

Admo: complicated to understand, plan around and predict.

21 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Avenger: my favorite upgrade, the thing hits way too hard for a newbie, even experienced players underestimate it.

Admo: complicated to understand, plan around and predict.

Definitely Avenger. I concur with Admo only because its ability supports those payload dumps that will obliterate newbie ships. Was actually more worried about Foresight though.

8 minutes ago, Admiral Calkins said:

Definitely Avenger. I concur with Admo only because its ability supports those payload dumps that will obliterate newbie ships. Was actually more worried about Foresight though.

Seems a little harsh but maybe no ISDs at all for vets? At least not in the beginning? Give those newbies a chance to get some success before throwing a speed 3 ISD II at them?

14 minutes ago, mr_mithrandir said:

Seems a little harsh but maybe no ISDs at all for vets? At least not in the beginning? Give those newbies a chance to get some success before throwing a speed 3 ISD II at them?

I'll bring it up, but our initial discussion ended with no more than one ISD per fleet for a veteran. Two seemed like too much (especially with Motti), but even newer players should get used to seeing ISDs on the table and learning to avoid those front arcs. Maybe no Christmas tree Kuats though.

For my demos I typically follow the Corellian Conflict rules (especially for experienced players vs beginners) and allow only 1 upgrade per ship. I would also limit squadrons to just generics or generics + a maximum of 1 ace. For the ace I generally take Luke or Howlrunner as they come in the Core set and are available to everyone.

Speaking of the Core set, you could also limit the experienced players to only equipping upgrades that are available in the Core. This would provide a challenge to your veterans while showing your rookies how to use the upgrades they are most likely to own.

I feel like I would take the opportunity to have a list using XI7s and an identical one with Heavy Turbolaser Turrets instead, and then lecture on why one is better than the other even though they seem so similar.

You might as well simplify the rules and instead of prohibiting Yavaris, Demo, Avenger, Centicore, etc., just drop all titles from use for this League. Or better yet, drop all unique upgrades (Minus Admirals). That’ll keep things moving smoothly without having to stop and explain effects. Do that for Aces as well. Generic squadrons are perfectly fine to learn the basics.

What’s your point limit for fleets? 400 may put too many ships on the board for beginners to manage well if you’re doing light squads and few upgrades.

Maybe do the 200-point Task Force thing?

25 minutes ago, Tayloraj100 said:

What’s your point limit for fleets? 400 may put too many ships on the board for beginners to manage well if you’re doing light squads and few upgrades.

Maybe do the 200-point Task Force thing?

Based on @Snipafist's league and their success, after working it out with their opponent, players can bring a 100-400 point fleet to their match and they receive one league point for every 100 points in their fleet (the winner receives an additional point). I was focused more on limiting veteran players because I did not want players to start learning the game outside of the normal tournament fleet-building rules. This is based on my personal experience. I learned to play with someone who only wanted to play with commanders, so I had to completely relearn strategy (as well as the upgrade rules) when those were added to the game. Since the veterans are helping the newer players build their first few lists, we are certainly recommending them to limit their upgrades on a given ship to three or less, as well as limiting unique squadrons.

I would add to the exclude list:

Commander Sato: Concentrate Fire does a good job of explaining timing for dice pool building and dice manipulation.

Flight Commander: Changes basic timing of when dials/tokens are used since they are also learning that different commands are activated during different steps.

Any ship over 2 command value: The experienced players can give help on selection more times in a 6 round game. Can also help w/ navigation planning knowing where on the board your ship will be for each round and an estimation where your opponent will be.

The use list:

Tarkin, Defense/Weapon Liaison, other commanders/officers that change commands/tokens: Proper command planning is probably the hardest part so letting them see what a "correct" command looks like in the moment as opposed to explaining after the match is over may have more of an impact.

Motti, Tagge: Keep their ships intact longer.

1 hour ago, codytx2 said:

I would add to the exclude list:

Commander Sato: Concentrate Fire does a good job of explaining timing for dice pool building and dice manipulation.

Flight Commander: Changes basic timing of when dials/tokens are used since they are also learning that different commands are activated during different steps.

Any ship over 2 command value: The experienced players can give help on selection more times in a 6 round game. Can also help w/ navigation planning knowing where on the board your ship will be for each round and an estimation where your opponent will be.

The use list:

Tarkin, Defense/Weapon Liaison, other commanders/officers that change commands/tokens: Proper command planning is probably the hardest part so letting them see what a "correct" command looks like in the moment as opposed to explaining after the match is over may have more of an impact.

Motti, Tagge: Keep their ships intact longer.

Were these exclude/use suggestions for veteran players or newer players? It's looks like for newer players, so I'll respond to that. I would agree to not recommend Sato to a newer player, as he take a more veteran understanding of the game to optimize. Indifferent on Flight Commander. As far as the command value, I really don't want to limit a new player's ship choices. By your suggestion, players could not use an ISD, VSD, or MC80, MC80L, or MC75, and in my opinion, the really limits them on list-building and understanding those ships' roles in the game. Definitely would suggest some of the liaison officers, as well as Motti, in their first few games until they get a handle on things. I just really want to limit veteran players from having commanders or upgrades that may be too powerful against a newer player (I'm looking at you, Raddus).

3 minutes ago, Admiral Calkins said:

Were these exclude/use suggestions for veteran players or newer players? It's looks like for newer players, so I'll respond to that. I would agree to not recommend Sato to a newer player, as he take a more veteran understanding of the game to optimize. Indifferent on Flight Commander. As far as the command value, I really don't want to limit a new player's ship choices. By your suggestion, players could not use an ISD, VSD, or MC80, MC80L, or MC75, and in my opinion, the really limits them on list-building and understanding those ships' roles in the game. Definitely would suggest some of the liaison officers, as well as Motti, in their first few games until they get a handle on things. I just really want to limit veteran players from having commanders or upgrades that may be too powerful against a newer player (I'm looking at you, Raddus).

Sorry about that but you were correct w/ the intended audiences. The excluded personal for everyone and include list could be for both but mainly for new players.

I agree the restriction on ships w/ higher command values does exclude a lot of good ships so maybe strongly suggest to the new players when they run them to, in the beginning, run X commander/officer/crew upgrade.