I like to think Vultures’ unique dial will be a benefit to them, personally. The amount of ground they can cover as a group is intriguing. Time will tell.

Networked calculations >>> +1 agility (TIE fighter)

Networked calculations is a very strong ship ability. Grappling struts makes the vultures strange dial just fine. They have target lock.

Vultures with grappling struts should cost 23 points . They are better than an Academy TIE fighter.

1 minute ago, Dengar5 said:

Networked calculations >>> +1 agility (TIE fighter)

Networked calculations is a very strong ship ability. Grappling struts makes the vultures strange dial just fine. They have target lock.

Vultures with grappling struts should cost 23 points . They are better than an Academy TIE fighter.

I dunno that you can rely on grappling struts so much, now that ppl can bring gas clouds. It seems like it’ll be hard to land against a player who sees you coming for that single relevant asteroid a mile away. We’ll see!

1 hour ago, mcintma said:

I dunno that you can rely on grappling struts so much, now that ppl can bring gas clouds. It seems like it’ll be hard to land against a player who sees you coming for that single relevant asteroid a mile away. We’ll see!

As @Hiemfire pointed out, it’s not that Grappling struts will be powerful because you can park on a rock like a turret. It’s that—in such a case as a Vulture Swarm is flying remotely in the direction of an asteroid—they are immediately less predictable than almost any other ship. Sure they can park on the asteroid (which will be a little more dangerous at first, as players will expect you to want to play with your new toy) but as we get used to them, asteroids will do little to give your enemy an idea of where you’re going, as opposed to the obvious choice being avoiding them.

That feels awfully wordy for what I want to say, but it’s late so I’m not going to try fixing it right now.

3 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

I am saying they will be 23 points because that is the cheapest a ship can be and still limit it to 8x of that ship. Not because it is a TIE or Z. I'm not saying I'm correct either, just the logic pattern I saw at that time.

I don't disagree with this idea. That doesn't mean that FFG will agree or that they won't "player proof" the ship by making it the same cost as a TIE. Also, six 23 point ships is 138 points, which leaves 62 points for Belbullab or upgrades. Drop to 5 and you have 85 points for an Infiltrator.

Anyone want to place bets that there will be a ship that is cheaper than 23 points after the update on Monday?

There is a ship cheaper than 23 points, its the scum escape craft which costs 22 for its 1st named pilot and 12 for its cheapest pilot. Scum is only 4 points too expensive for 9 ships, if scum had a 23 point ship they could fit 9 ships in 200 (scum tie and z-95 start at 24)

9 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

As @Hiemfire pointed out, it’s not that Grappling struts will be powerful because you can park on a rock like a turret. It’s that—in such a case as a Vulture Swarm is flying remotely in the direction of an asteroid—they are immediately less predictable than almost any other ship. Sure they can park on the asteroid (which will be a little more dangerous at first, as players will expect you to want to play with your new toy) but as we get used to them, asteroids will do little to give your enemy an idea of where you’re going, as opposed to the obvious choice being avoiding them.

I hear ya, but again it's hard to imagine reliably getting a powerful advantage from grapplers (such that the points cost need to be higher than ~20), assuming gas clouds become a thing. So let's say a swarm of 6 vultures are near a relevant rock (given 3 gas clouds, and your opponent placing 1-2 of your 3 rocks ... you have best case 2 rocks in the relevant area of engagement for the match, often 1 rock), as the vulture player you go for the rock and maneuver perfectly and 2 of your vultures land on the rock. Next turn you have to break formation (if you want to take advantage of the 2 grapplers turning or parking). OR you could overfly or avoid the rock with the whole swarm OR maintain your formation next turn through the rock with a 2-FWD on all 6 vultures (never stopping).

So I 100% agree they will be unpredictable near a rock, I'm just not sure how powerful that is, given the cost to yourself of having to set a start-game approach vector to get near a rock (predictable) and possibly break formation after passing thru. The more I think of it as a baseline the mining guild TIE is the best compare, as the vulture swarm can just ignore asteroids (AND debris) and only be forced to alter its maneuvering plan if it actually lands on one (in other words, treat the grapplers' ability to stop/turn on rocks as icing on top, but mainly you'll use their ability to ignore rocks). This is one I really need to fly, and look fwd to flying. Lack of a 4K and networked calcs vs focus also big factors.

23 minutes ago, mcintma said:

such  that the points cost need to be higher than ~20 

Yeah, no, I still think they’ll be priced closer to 20 points, myself.

That said, one huge thing about your logic: I honestly feel like these guys won’t need a formation, so much. They’ll actually look swarmy, they have quick, tight, turnarounds, and they can park. It shouldn’t be difficult to keep all of your a Vultures within range one of at least one, probably two other Vultures, and have arc with a decent amount of them.

8 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Yeah, no, I still think they’ll be priced closer to 20 points, myself.

That said, one huge thing about your logic: I honestly feel like these guys won’t need a formation, so much. They’ll actually look swarmy, they have quick, tight, turnarounds, and they can park. It shouldn’t be difficult to keep all of your a Vultures within range one of at least one, probably two other Vultures, and have arc with a decent amount of them.

It's possible a loose-swarm will be the way to fly these, but I'm not sure without flying them - feels like they could get picked-off pretty easily 1-by-1 by aces or even Ini4 pocket aces, and will have trouble pushing thru damage if they aren't concentrating fire properly. Look fwd to trying!

10 hours ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

There is a ship cheaper than 23 points, its the scum escape craft which costs 22 for its 1st named pilot and 12 for its cheapest pilot. Scum is only 4 points too expensive for 9 ships, if scum had a 23 point ship they could fit 9 ships in 200 (scum tie and z-95 start at 24)

I realize that the Escape Craft is cheaper, however all of those pilots are Unique so you can only bring 1 copy of each. At most you could field 4 Escape Craft, all with different pilots. Those ships aren't relevant to this conversation because you can't "swarm" them.

The configuration is the key to this point hypothesis. If the configuration is 0 points, I fully suspect 23 points. If there is a point cost for the configuration, it will reduce an even amount. The configuration basicly let's it ignore obstacles. I understand the downsides. Also, the sharing of calculate tokens is powerful on it's own.

10 minutes ago, martini74 said:

The configuration is the key to this point hypothesis. If the configuration is 0 points, I fully suspect 23 points. If there is a point cost for the configuration, it will reduce an even amount. The configuration basically let's it ignore obstacles. I understand the downsides. Also, the sharing of calculate tokens is powerful on it's own.

Grappling Struts =/= basically ignoring obstacles. Dash is ignoring obstacles. Qi'ra crew is ignoring obstacles.

Grappling Struts require you to actually land on them to ignore them. Without speed 1 banks or straights, there creates a certain area where the Vultures need to be the turn before to land on them while still getting a viable shot. On top of that, the Vulture's position the turn(s) afterwards become very predictable. Even using the barrel roll off the rock link to calculate (because you need those), it's still predictable since it's only blues are straights and 2 turns to clear the linked stress.

Not saying it's really hard to get them on rocks, but I think people overall are overestimating and not fully understanding what the Grappling Struts do and HOW it actually happens in game. Especially dealing in the turns before and after being on an obstacle.

39 minutes ago, RStan said:

Grappling Struts require you to actually land on them to ignore them.

Yeah on a closer reading of the card, you only flip grappling struts when you overlap, not when your template just passes over, the rock. If you land on (overlap) a rock, you flip the card, THEN next time you can ignore rocks when moving through them. It's quite a tricky interaction and will probably take alot of practice to effectively leverage.

23 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

I am saying they will be 23 points because that is the cheapest a ship can be and still limit it to 8x of that ship.

At least for tournament play, that doesn't matter though. Per the squad-building section in the tournament rules: A legal squad list contains between 2 and 8 ships [...]

I'm also calling 23, i don't think ffg wants to go lower than that ever.

On 1/24/2019 at 11:13 PM, NeonWolf said:

Probably ought to be grapes, since you can take them in bunches.... 🙂

Naturally they are grapes, as they have grap pling struts!

*runs for cover*

12 hours ago, Zura said:

I'm also calling 23, i don't think ffg wants to go lower than that ever.

17 hours ago, Zura said:

I'm also calling 23, i don't think ffg wants to go lower than that ever.

Again they already went below 23 with the scum escape craft

L3-37 is 22

has 4hp(2 is shield)

has a pilot ability

has red coordinate

initiative 2

Thus if you take the base of 22 and reduce the initiative, swap the hp to 3 hull only, get rid of coordinate, swap the pilot ability with a ship ability, and buff the dial a bit.

I think 20-22 is possible for them

14 hours ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

Again they already went below 23 with the scum escape craft

L3-37 is 22

has 4hp(2 is shield)

has a pilot ability

has red coordinate

initiative 2

Thus if you take the base of 22 and reduce the initiative, swap the hp to 3 hull only, get rid of coordinate, swap the pilot ability with a ship ability, and buff the dial a bit.

I think 20-22 is possible for them

And again the Escape Craft has unique pilots only, so you can't field more than 4 of them. Irrelevant to point costing of generic pilots.

15 hours ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

L3-37 is 22

has 4hp(2 is shield)

has a pilot ability

has red coordinate

initiative 2

Thus if you take the base of 22 and reduce the initiative, swap the hp to 3 hull only, get rid of coordinate, swap the pilot ability with a ship ability, and buff the dial a bit.

I think 20-22 is possible for them

Balancing Vultures against an undercosted L3-37 is unwise. (L3-37 should be 24 points) If you balance the vulture against generic TIE fighters and generic X-wings, their cost should be 23 points. Otherwise your train of thought is good.

Would you people be OK with 20-22 point vultures if TIE fighters went down a point or two?

Nothing is set in stone, here, boys and girls. There are rules making the “23-points or you can fit 9” logic irrelevant.

1 minute ago, SpiderMana said:

There are rules making the “23-points or you can fit 9” logic irrelevant.

^ In all its simplistic glory. 2-8 ships is the hard limit.

So, when do we get all this glory?? =(

I think they'll definitely be less than 23 points, because if they weren't - you'd not need the 2-8 ship limit rule at all. The very fact that rule was added means FFG are planning on a <23 pt generic - and Vultures are the most obvious ship to be that.

1 hour ago, MaxTeranous said:

You'd not need the 2-8 ship limit rule at all. The very fact that rule was added means FFG are planning on a <23 pt generic - and Vultures are the most obvious ship to be that.

That said; While not exactly popular, the M-814 (techno union starfighter) Was in Ep.III, has popped up in games, books and comics.

It's a manned snub fighter- yes; But a separatist ship nonetheless which was Cheaper to build, field, maintain and in general use due the lack of a droid control ship and a simple need for pilots which could be swapped out for droids shoild the need arise slightly upping the cost again..

in every other star wars board game the m-814 has been far cheaper then the Vulture because it's a far worse ship; quality wise and capability wise.

It was a Snub fighter and short range interceptor. If we get that little teeny Rattletrap of a starfighter in this game; I can see it honestly being even cheaper then the vulture with perfect reasoning.

I'd even give it a bad but fast dial; 2 red, 2 green, 1 shield and 2 hull. super expendable but does the job of getting in fast.

Vultures do co-ordinated group strikes; The CIS had so very, very many low cost options I think ships costing over 50 base will be the rarity.