The first week of this year we made a little Armada: Task Force tourney. 200 pts. limit and reduced effects from objectives. It was great fun. We played 3 games in less then 3 1/2 hours.

Demolisher dominated the field. And while pursuing an enemy flagship I remembered an old problem. Normally it's nearly impossible for the haunter to win a ship chase, because you shoot first and move second. And that feels "wrong" because it should be a good position to be behind your (fleeing) enemy.

Only demo is quite capable to kill in a relentless pursuit. So I thought: Wouldn't it be nice if all ships were allowed to make a "Demo" when pursuing? In other words, the rules could be altered in the following way: "You may perform 1 of your attacks after your first maneuver, if that attack can be declared against the rear hull zone of an enemy ship."

I think that rule would be great, because it rewards you for good maneuvering! There are new and very interesting ways to position and outmaneuver your enemy. It would be a little boost for MSU lists, which lack love IMHO. And Demo wouldn't be such an game breaking singularity anymore!

What do you think? Would you like a little bit Demo for everybody?

This would be a fantastic Armada 2.0 change.

I'm not sure it's exactly ideal the way you've implemented it, and certainly it would imbalance the game as it stands right now, but this specific thing is the biggest gripe I've had with Armada's mechanics since I started playing. Pursuit doesn't work, and that's dumb.

BT Avenger with the Demolisher rule. Flight Commander could make things even worse. BT Avenger with 4 TIE Bombers.... Eeek! I'm not keen.

Why don't you arrange a 400 point game and see how it goes.

What special rule would you use for Demolisher in this game? You could allow it to make both its attacks after its first move.

4 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

BT Avenger with the Demolisher rule. Flight Commander could make things even worse. BT Avenger with 4 TIE Bombers.... Eeek! I'm not keen.

Why don't you arrange a 400 point game and see how it goes.

What special rule would you use for Demolisher in this game? You could allow it to make both its attacks after its first move.

No. Demo can make 1 of its attacks after the first move. But it doesn't mind if its against rear arc or anything (like squadrons for example.)

30 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

BT Avenger with the Demolisher rule. Flight Commander could make things even worse. BT Avenger with 4 TIE Bombers.... Eeek! I'm not keen.

Why don't you arrange a 400 point game and see how it goes.

What special rule would you use for Demolisher in this game? You could allow it to make both its attacks after its first move.

You're right. I should try this out.

But Task Force Format is no crucial part for this rule change suggestion. It was only the first time since ... don't remember ... that I played Demolisher. I had set a trap for the enemy flagship, an Arquitens, but I really had no luck with my dice roll. So the Arquitens could flee and I thought: "It's over! Can't get it in a pursuit!" But I got it because I was able to shoot after (first) movement. If not I could have rolled 2 red dice and make some ramming with ET.

There was anoter really interesting situation in this TF tourney. I was able to hide my Demo behind a Dust Cloud. The enemy ISD was damaged and couldn't attack me AND it couldn't go forward without risking to get blown out by Demo's side and rear arc. My opponent had SA and could have waited till I had moved. But Demo would have been able to go around the dust cloud and attack the rear of the ISD, what was likely killing it. It was perfect! But only possible for 1 ship with 1 (very popular) title.

I would like if other ships could do those wonderful moves and traps and stuff as well. BT "Avenger" is very strong as it is! (And it's exhaust now. So I don't see so much a problem in this.) "Flight Commander" doesn't impact this too much IMO. But think of "Insidious" how wonderful this title would be with this rule change. All fast and maneuverable ships would get a boost after all the love they gave big ships with SA, Pryce and Bail. Planning and maneuvering will be more rewarding as it is now, I could imagine!

I would think the game will get more dynamic (and more deadly) after round 3. Yes, you're absolutly right. This should really be tried out!

It’s a great idea and perhaps a small/medium only generic Officer would work well. Something like a “Pursuit Specialist”. That could really energize MSU.

Presumably you would have to declare that you are going to try and do a move-shoot before you move and therefore if you don't get LOS to the rear arc you lose the attack?

1 hour ago, Zamalekite said:

Presumably you would have to declare that you are going to try and do a move-shoot before you move and therefore if you don't get LOS to the rear arc you lose the attack?

Sure! You can't move back to make your second attack!

Same for Demolisher. If you decide to attack after your move and then are out of range for your black dice, you also loose an attack.

Yeah, I like that - you make your one attack and then move, but if you aren’t in arc for that rear shot, that’s on you as the player.

The officer would be nice as it would make you choose between that sweet offensive ability and the great defensive options like Brunson and Lando, which would give you a meaningful choice and have a big impact on how you play Admo or Insidious (which would be an excellent title).

For me, I would say, no. No. No. No.

I like the hard mode of Armada's shoot and then move mechanic. It's the basic mechanic on which the entire game is built. Getting a rear shot is not that difficult.

25 minutes ago, Rocmistro said:

For me, I would say, no. No. No. No.

I like the hard mode of Armada's shoot and then move mechanic. It's the basic mechanic on which the entire game is built. Getting a rear shot is not that difficult.

Did you ever try to chase a fleeing enemy (at Armada only)? Quite a frustration normally.

3 minutes ago, Triangular said:

Did you ever try to chase a fleeing enemy (at Armada only)? Quite a frustration normally.

I agree. You could argue that if you nav'd properly, you wouldn't be in this position, but I find it often means that your ships is somewhat out of the game for more rounds than it is in, which I don't find fun. Maybe I just need to 'git good (very likely), but an officer that allows this? Yes please. Make it unique (a la Hondo) if you need further limitations. Imperial players can get Demo + this and with a small-only limitation, maybe you've given further incentive to build around imperial MSU? Maybe?

50 minutes ago, Triangular said:

Did you ever try to chase a fleeing enemy (at Armada only)? Quite a frustration normally.

Of course. I've been on the giving and receiving end of a runaway ship. That's how it goes. I absolutely do not want Armada to become a reactionary game, and this kind of talk is the first step towards that. If I had my druthers we wouldn't even have the Demolisher title in the game, but I suppose one "thing" in the game to shake up the meta is ok. Part of the game is planning for the possibility that an opposing player cuts and runs, and figuring out how to stop that from happening. That process starts as early as deployment, it doesn't just happen by accident on turns 5 or 6.

Hyperspace Assault plus Raddus coming at ya.

I fear that the best use of this rule would end up not being for what it's intended.

Both players are subjected to the same problem of chasing right now (demolisher aside) so it may be wonky, but I think to solve this problem properly would require a bigger change. Like, the turn sequence could be split once more into the "shoot phase" and "move phase".. everyone shoots before everyone moves. Lowers the effect of player skill on the game a bit tho.

1 hour ago, homedrone said:

I fear that the best use of this rule would end up not being for what it's intended.

Both players are subjected to the same problem of chasing right now (demolisher aside) so it may be wonky, but I think to solve this problem properly would require a bigger change. Like, the turn sequence could be split once more into the "shoot phase" and "move phase".. everyone shoots before everyone moves. Lowers the effect of player skill on the game a bit tho.

That's not a change in the system. That's another system. Question was: Should every ship be a bit of a Demolisher? Not: Should Armada be "Spaceships of Glory"...

Could limit it more by making it 'you may perform an attack from your front arc against a rear arc after you move'. Then it really only applies to pursuing cases.

9 hours ago, Jukey said:

Could limit it more by making it 'you may perform an attack from your front arc against a rear arc after you move'. Then it really only applies to pursuing cases.

Yea this would be a little better as if you and your opponent are moving at each other the first person who moves past the other get a shot at the rear of the other ship event though he isnt chasing.

17 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Hyperspace Assault plus Raddus coming at ya.

Which side of the discussion is this meant to support, Gink?

Because in both of those instances, the Hyperspaced-in ship will not be going first (ie, there's a chance for the opposing player to first move his ship that would otherwise be getting nailed in the tukus), which still potentially presents the chase problem for the Hyperspacing-in player.

17 hours ago, homedrone said:

I fear that the best use of this rule would end up not being for what it's intended.

Both players are subjected to the same problem of chasing right now (demolisher aside) so it may be wonky, but I think to solve this problem properly would require a bigger change. Like, the turn sequence could be split once more into the "shoot phase" and "move phase".. everyone shoots before everyone moves. Lowers the effect of player skill on the game a bit tho.

I don't ever want to become a curmudgeony "Get off my lawn" / Gatekeeper type, but if (and I sincerely stress the *IF*) that's a change your actually arguing for, I would oppose it vehemently.

On 1/21/2019 at 8:00 AM, Ardaedhel said:

... but this specific thing is the biggest gripe I've had with Armada's mechanics since I started playing. Pursuit doesn't work, and that's dumb.

Yes! Totally agree. If an opponent quickly kills one of your small ships and then runs, you might catch him by turn 6, but it is almost impossible to engage with that tactic. IMO, there needs to be a mechanic to discourage running or empower pursuit.

7 minutes ago, racknut said:

Yes! Totally agree. If an opponent quickly kills one of your small ships and then runs, you might catch him by turn 6, but it is almost impossible to engage with that tactic. IMO, there needs to be a mechanic to discourage running or empower pursuit.

There is. It's called:

-deploy properly.

-have a fleet that has a solution to late game runners.

-use squadrons that can move and shoot.

I have always thought small ships should have the option to use an attack after a manoeuvre and the Demo title means you can attack twice after your manoeuvre. More MSU power to offset the current meta.

This could be countered by the addition of a standby upgrade for large ships meaning from a single arc they could fire at a ship during that ships manoeuvre, so the big ship will get a chance to fire at the small one if it is not manoeuvred properly.

How many times do we see a bit of janky rebel (or imperial) flying through a big ships front arc, but only to end in their weaker side or rear arc, without a shot being fired?

5 hours ago, XR8rGREAT said:

... if you and your opponent are moving at each other the first person who moves past the other get a shot at the rear of the other ship event though he isnt chasing.

That's not really like it is. Let's think this through.

1) Two ships engaging. A moves first. Old rule: A can't shoot and moves. B shoots at A and moves. Tri's rule: Same
A-> (beyond range) <-B // after A's movement: A-> (range) <-B

2a) Two ships facing each other, A can move behind B. Old rule: A can shoot and moves. Tri's rule: Same. If A didn't attack twice before its move and can attack rear, then gets second attack.
A-> (range) <-B // after A's movement: <-B A-> (second attack into rear)

2b) After ship slipped in your rear hull zone. Old rule: B shoots and moves. Tri's rule: Same
<-B A-> (B attacks) // after B's movement: <-B (distance) A->

If ships pass each other there CAN be a advantage, if you don't double arc and if you get around or behind your enemy. But that won't be a crucial difference, I would guess. What really differs, if your enemy is able to attack from side or from behind.

Now let's look like a chase differs! Supposed both ships are same speed.

1) Chasing ship has initiative. Old rule: A shoots, long range, moves. Then B shoots back (medium or short range). Tri's rule: A is allowed to move and then shoot. Then B shoots back and moves. (Both attacks at same distance.)

A-> (long range) B-> // after A's move: A-> B-> (better range for B)

2) Fleeing ship has initiative. Old rule: B shoots and moves. Then A can't shoot and moves. Tri's rule: A is allowed to move and then shoot. (Both attacks at same distance if both ships are the same speed.)

A-> (medium range) B-> // after B's move: A-> (out of raaaaange...) B->

In real life the worst place your enemy can be is in your back. But in Armada as fleeing ship you have quite a comfortable position. If your enemy shoots before you, he is forced to shorten the distance. So you can shoot back at a better range! And if initiative is yours you can shoot your enemy as if you would drop obstacles out of your vehicle in a car chase and never will be bothered at all.

I don't think, that Armada is a bad game or has major issues in its design. Not at all! I like it! And I don't have problems in getting a grip at the rules, benefit from positioning. More often I win than I lose at my turf. It only struck me, that Demo can chase enemies very successfully! And it felt right for me to be a dangerous pain in the *** for my opponent, when I'm coming from behind. I would like to have a pursuing-Demo-rule to make the game more interesting in the end phase. Even if that means my opponents can chase me better than ever before, as well!