On 1/21/2019 at 8:56 AM, viedit said:

I've found one slight glitch in the matrix....T70 generics aren't terrible. At 3s/4h for a total of 7 health backed by 2 agility and an EPT the Red Vets are "decent". You aren't going splat if you eat a proton torp to the face. You aren't getting oneshot off the board if you get caught in arc of an Ooopsilon that makes the jump from hyperspace on turn 1. The dial is open enough and backed by a boost that you can get them out of their own way. They are very good at tanking MOV and bring enough red dice with them that stuff really doesn't want to joust you.

There is nothing fancy going on here, just a lot of health and punch on a pretty versatile chassis.

Black Squadron pilots make a really good foil to Poe if you wanna' load him up and NOT pay for Ello and Nien.

Ello, by the way, is fairly undercosted. He can tallon roll and not give a ****. You don't even need Primed Thrusters on him. He's just exceptional at moving around and then of course, taking the proper actions.

On 1/27/2019 at 11:23 AM, Dengar5 said:

Some of us have MathWing spreadsheets that keep getting more accurate as they get refined over time with more data from game results. When I throw out point costs, I have tangible calculations behind what I say.

• Personally, I balance everything relative to the generic T-65 X-wing
• Vultures droids should cost 23 points
• Kylo Ren is significantly overcosted relative to the X-wing & other force users
• Most I5 pilots are undercosted. I6 pilots are actually costed fairly. (but not Wedge)
• I can tell you exactly how undercosted Lulo & Tali are. Lulo should be ~44 / Tali should be ~41

I think MathWing is a great tool but it still falls under the category of player theories (albeit a very elaborate one) because it lacks play-testing! Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

MathWing's data can indeed give pointers on what ships feel overcosted, and therefore suggest guidance on better values. However, it just remains a very elaborate theory/model since there is no play-testing. In the modeling world, a model you have not validated remains uncertain. Furthermore, given the amount of variables, any model (MathWing) included would necessarily need to make a ton of assumptions. MathWing's assumptions are not even documented, but can be deduced following its author's work and results.

Seriously, unless there is play-testing, it's just theory. I see zero play-testing. If players would spend 10% of the time they spend theorizing in actual play-testing, there would be much better discussions here. This is why FFG gives zero credibility to much of the stuff discussed here, including MathWing.

I can't comment on who is right and who is wrong as far as point costs go. All I can comment is that I see a huge hole in the entire discussion: the feedback loop is not closed between the theory and the validation.

This week is the first major SoS post-points. I fear that the points adjustments were just playing whack-a-mole with current 'problem' squads and did not address the underlying issues. And with the exception of a squad like UXXYY (AKA Leia abuse) or Triple Upsilon(Deployment abuse), I fear the meta will be once-again named pilots with as many Words as possible.

3 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

This week is the first major SoS post-points. I fear that the points adjustments were just playing whack-a-mole with current 'problem' squads and did not address the underlying issues. And with the exception of a squad like UXXYY (AKA Leia abuse) or Triple Upsilon(Deployment abuse), I fear the meta will be once-again named pilots with as many Words as possible.

There is a natural pressure away from homogenous generics lists and toward heterogenous lists with diverse abilities because just how most people build their collections when they start. The average player is buying 1 or 2 of each ship and list building from there. People who have the commitment and foreknowledge to buy 5 TIE Strikers or 4 Phantoms or 6 Y-Wings are the exception to the norm in this game.

That being said, you took the time in your post to call out the lists that are doing well and disprove your theory but dismissed them for no reason. Striker swarms are also popular, and quad Phantoms are still feared by many in extended. Scurrg swarms backed by Drea are also terrifying. FFG has given generics more tools with the points update which include Leia and veteran turret gunner, and even refused to take away the tools that already made them good like Sloane and Drea. If you are demanding that lists that have zero unique upgrades in them be dominant, that’s too much of a purist attitude and probably not something FFG wants anyway. The characters of Star Wars are just as integral to the IP as the ships.

2 hours ago, Tvboy said:

There is a natural pressure away from homogenous generics lists and toward heterogenous lists with diverse abilities because just how most people build their collections when they start. The average player is buying 1 or 2 of each ship and list building from there. People who have the commitment and foreknowledge to buy 5 TIE Strikers or 4 Phantoms or 6 Y-Wings are the exception to the norm in this game.

Not to mention that some people don't like to fly the same thing every single week. There's pretty much just one list I can fly with a TIE swarm (maybe minor variants). With one or two each of several ships, though, there are a lot more options for me to try each week.

8 hours ago, Tvboy said:

There is a natural pressure away from homogenous generics lists and toward heterogenous lists with diverse abilities because just how most people build their collections when they start. The average player is buying 1 or 2 of each ship and list building from there. People who have the commitment and foreknowledge to buy 5 TIE Strikers or 4 Phantoms or 6 Y-Wings are the exception to the norm in this game.

That being said, you took the time in your post to call out the lists that are doing well and disprove your theory but dismissed them for no reason. Striker swarms are also popular, and quad Phantoms are still feared by many in extended. Scurrg swarms backed by Drea are also terrifying. FFG has given generics more tools with the points update which include Leia and veteran turret gunner, and even refused to take away the tools that already made them good like Sloane and Drea. If you are demanding that lists that have zero unique upgrades in them be dominant, that’s too much of a purist attitude and probably not something FFG wants anyway. The characters of Star Wars are just as integral to the IP as the ships.

my point is that Sloane is doing well regardless of how garbage her fodder is.

Why should ships be garbage without a specific support ship that defines the list?

Sloane, drea, howlrunner, etc, should go up, and the Academy/Sentinels, etc, should go down.

11 of the Toronto top 16 have an I6, and another has two I5s.

The other 4 are two quad Phantom lists and two Leia lists.

I5/6 compression wasn't touched by the points rebalance, I'm going to be sad if Toronto isn't a fluke and it's still meta defining.

27 minutes ago, svelok said:

11 of the Toronto top 16 have an I6, and another has two I5s.

The other 4 are two quad Phantom lists and two Leia lists.

I5/6 compression wasn't touched by the points rebalance, I'm going to be sad if Toronto isn't a fluke and it's still meta defining.

It is

They're still incredibly cheap, and they offer tremendous advantages. It's pretty simple, too.

Factions don't have enough I6 ships to reliably PS kill I5 aces before they get to do stuff. So I5s can safely be taken with no real risk at all of not getting do what you wanted to do. But there are so many I5s that playing an I4 ship is more or less guaranteed to put you at a disadvantage because despite being "cheaper" an I4 ship is in reality far more expensive than an I5 ship because it gets fewer impactful opportunities to leverage its abilities (and therefore its points). If you made it so that ships weren't destroyed until the end of engagement you would see a huge shift, since then the only advantage would be in action selection.

On 2/23/2019 at 6:41 PM, Kaptin Krunch said:

my point is that Sloane is doing well regardless of how garbage her fodder is.

Why should ships be garbage without a specific support ship that defines the list?

Sloane, drea, howlrunner, etc, should go up, and the Academy/Sentinels, etc, should go down.

Because lists that are just pure efficiency are boring and horrible to play against round in and round out. BBBBZ was basically this, and it was so boring to play against, you just lost to it because it had raw efficiency on its side. X-Wing can be more interesting than just movement templates and dice, which is all you get when you are just running generics with no abilities or upgrades.

This coming from someone who just went 3-1 at a tournament with 4 Warden Squadron Pilots.

13 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Because lists that are just pure efficiency are boring and horrible to play against round in and round out. BBBBZ was basically this, and it was so boring to play against, you just lost to it because it had raw efficiency on its side. X-Wing can be more interesting than just movement templates and dice, which is all you get when you are just running generics with no abilities or upgrades.

This coming from someone who just went 3-1 at a tournament with 4 Warden Squadron Pilots.

I feel like you are underrepresenting how good, wholesome, and fun choosing your maneuvers is, and efficiency lists are just that. /s

19 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

I feel like you are underrepresenting how good, wholesome, and fun choosing your maneuvers is, and efficiency lists are just that. /s

It's a good foundation, and I get that some people would be happy just playing Core set games for the rest of eternity, but there needs to be something else going on, just a little bit extra to keep it interesting. Otherwise why have upgrades at all?

I watched Pete Rose's quarterfinal game and he was playing BBXXZ. Having Leia on Zeb was just enough spice to add an extra layer of decision making to the list that wasn't just about choosing which direction to point his arcs, and I think that's good for the game. Just because he had a named sheathipede with a unique upgrade in the list doesn't mean he wasn't flying a generics list, his list was still 82% generics.

On 2/23/2019 at 8:41 PM, Kaptin Krunch said:

my point is that Sloane is doing well regardless of how garbage her fodder is.

Why should ships be garbage without a specific support ship that defines the list?

Sloane, drea, howlrunner, etc, should go up, and the Academy/Sentinels, etc, should go down.

37 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

It's a good foundation, and I get that some people would be happy just playing Core set games for the rest of eternity, but there needs to be something else going on, just a little bit extra to keep it interesting. Otherwise why have upgrades at all?

I watched Pete Rose's quarterfinal game and he was playing BBXXZ. Having Leia on Zeb was just enough spice to add an extra layer of decision making to the list that wasn't just about choosing which direction to point his arcs, and I think that's good for the game. Just because he had a named sheathipede with a unique upgrade in the list doesn't mean he wasn't flying a generics list, his list was still 82% generics.

These are two fundamentally opposite viewpoints when it comes to "balance".

And I definitely agree with @Tvboy on this. When it comes to game design, having elements of the game that alter the decision tree from game to game is important. Force multipliers like Drea, Howl, Leia, and Sloane all add interesting tactical decisions to the game.

4 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Force multipliers like Drea, Howl, Leia, and Sloane all add interesting tactical decisions to the game.

Sloane adds interesting tactical decisions? Only if you think waiting for your opponent to royally screw up is interesting...

On 1/21/2019 at 10:37 AM, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

This^

I liked it when Force Users manipulated existing effects. (Giving a stress, manipulating a dice) Having an explicit Force resource just feels... eh. And it's another **** thing to balance.

11 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

I liked it when Force Users manipulated existing effects. (Giving a stress, manipulating a dice) Having an explicit Force resource just feels... eh. And it's another **** thing to balance.

I think it was a good idea that, in general, has been badly implemented and terribly costed.

28 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

I liked it when Force Users manipulated existing effects. (Giving a stress, manipulating a dice) Having an explicit Force resource just feels... eh. And it's another **** thing to balance.

Its another design lever to pull that isn't text on a card, but I understand and appreciate your point.

18 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I think it was a good idea that, in general, has been badly implemented and terribly costed.

Costing at least can be fixed.

When 2.0 fully released, pretty much everything I built tried to abuse the Force for essentially token stacking. None of the Force using pilots have been particularly format warping yet, but it's still kind of early to tell. I think when the Jedi are in the wild that we'll really see how the Force manipulates the game.

It (2.0) seems like a fun game now, just getting my feet good and wet now. But in typical FFG fashion, they ran with a fairly solid start, but went a little crazy on the points adjustments (down, level and up) IMO that didn't make sense in quite a few places. It seems they need to use a scalpel when they think a hammer will do, but oh well, that's their jam.

Haven't upgraded much at all yet save a few Imps ships from some excessive mates, plus the core of course. I was gifted the First Order upgrade kit -as it was the cheapest I'm sure- so I'm going to go all in on it even though it is seemingly the weakest or it's the least attempted faction (aside from Tripsilons, haha). I think there might be something in a generic 5 TIE/SF list, or 3 and Blackout... we'll see. It's good to be the underdog; which unlike the plot of the SW movies, is the darker side of the game.

52 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

When 2.0 fully released, pretty much everything I built tried to abuse the Force for essentially token stacking. None of the Force using pilots have been particularly format warping yet, but it's still kind of early to tell. I think when the Jedi are in the wild that we'll really see how the Force manipulates the game.

You're right that cost can be fixed, but my problem is with the implementation of force talents and abilities all requiring force points to be spent, and in most cases, they're just better used to convert a die result. It means their abilities really need to be game changing to be cost effective (using a force point cost, not point cost), and, with the exception of one (which has now seen its point cost skyrocket), they are barely even better than a lot of pilot abilities/talents -- even if they could be used regularly. So, in a lot of cases they'd just be better off with a pilot talent, but they can't even take those. I'm not convinced it can be fixed (unless force pilots are allowed to take a pilot OR force talent) or force talents that allow quicker regen of force points is released for reasonable points costs.

2 hours ago, AlexW said:

You're right that cost can be fixed, but my problem is with the implementation of force talents and abilities all requiring force points to be spent, and in most cases, they're just better used to convert a die result. It means their abilities really need to be game changing to be cost effective (using a force point cost, not point cost), and, with the exception of one (which has now seen its point cost skyrocket), they are barely even better than a lot of pilot abilities/talents -- even if they could be used regularly. So, in a lot of cases they'd just be better off with a pilot talent, but they can't even take those. I'm not convinced it can be fixed (unless force pilots are allowed to take a pilot OR force talent) or force talents that allow quicker regen of force points is released for reasonable points costs.

Your last point first: Hate is a real card, but only for dark side.

Now the rest of your stuff: I'm really glad you clarified, because we agree on this. Outside of Supernatural Reflexes (which I think is bad for the game anyway) and possibly Hate the other force talents are incredibly underwhelming and I don't think I'd ever use them. The only one I've considered ever was Instinctive Aim on a V1 generic. If Sense (which has a passive ability that doesn't spend Force) were cheaper I would seriously consider it. I think that FFG is being real careful with the force talents and EPTs, because a lot of the busted things in 1.0 derived from the talent slot.

41 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Your last point first: Hate is a real card, but only for dark side.

Now the rest of your stuff: I'm really glad you clarified, because we agree on this. Outside of Supernatural Reflexes (which I think is bad for the game anyway) and possibly Hate the other force talents are incredibly underwhelming and I don't think I'd ever use them. The only one I've considered ever was Instinctive Aim on a V1 generic. If Sense (which has a passive ability that doesn't spend Force) were cheaper I would seriously consider it. I think that FFG is being real careful with the force talents and EPTs, because a lot of the busted things in 1.0 derived from the talent slot.

Yeah, I realize I wasn't clear in my first post. I agree that Hate is kind of a step in the right direction, and it's probably costed pretty effectively but it's out of the force user's control, and as you mention, it's limited to certain users and is a trade-off for a result you really don't want (but that's why it can be costed so cheap).

Sense at least has a "free" aspect to its ability that would make it worth taking on some ships.

I find the worst offender to probably be predictive shot. I like the last sentence, but that's about it. The conditions you need to meet to use it and then for it to be useful anyway, are just ridiculous.

5 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Yeah, I realize I wasn't clear in my first post. I agree that Hate is kind of a step in the right direction, and it's probably costed pretty effectively but it's out of the force user's control, and as you mention, it's limited to certain users and is a trade-off for a result you really don't want (but that's why it can be costed so cheap).

Sense at least has a "free" aspect to its ability that would make it worth taking on some ships.

I find the worst offender to probably be predictive shot. I like the last sentence, but that's about it. The conditions you need to meet to use it and then for it to be useful anyway, are just ridiculous.

I consider it much, much better for FFG to design force upgrades very carefully at first. I'd rather there be some bad cards than there be a bunch of busted cards.

9 minutes ago, svelok said:

I consider it much, much better for FFG to design force upgrades very carefully at first. I'd rather there be some bad cards than there be a bunch of busted cards.

I get that, but I'm not just talking upgrades, though. I mean, look at most force abilities and then look at other pilots like Lu'lo, Poe (though he is sort of costed like a force user), Midnight, Tavson, Wedge, Scorch, Fenn, etc...I also think that we can easily see they left themselves an out with the point cost (see Supernatural Reflexes). I think that if the force is a central part of the game and the defining element of the IP in a lot of ways, they've really mis-handled it, imo.

Looks like Leia and turrets, specifically one faction's are the only generics viable enough to be useful in Hyperspace.

35 for an ICT Y, 41 for a bottom-I X or B, +2 points to go to i3, are probably within 2 points of correctly priced.

A large amount of lower-health generics are still not properly priced due to their fraility meaning they can get killed without shooting however. Either Init killing would need to be removed as a mechanic, or price adjustments for generic ships with low health amounts would need to occur.

35 gets you an ICT Y, and 34 gets you a naked sentinel- If these existed in the same faction, the generic sentinel would have very little reason to exist.