Hello,

I want to be 100% certain of this...

First : Han Solo reroll can be use after :

-rolling for an attack

-rolling for a defence

-rolling for an obstacle

-rolling for action like Lando or R2-D2

-or even after a reroll from lock or lone wolf ability to reroll a die.

Second : Han Solo reroll can be use multiple time on same attack like :

-Roll for attack

-Reroll all dice with Han Ability

-Use Lone Wolf (so you reroll a die)

- Re-use Han ability to reroll all dice

-Then use a lock to reroll 1-2-3 die

- Re-re-use Han Ability to reroll all dice

Third : Han Solo can reroll on 2 attacks occuring in the same turn :

-Roll for an attack

-Reroll all dice with Han Ability

- Bistan is your gunner and you actually have a focus , so attack again an other ship

-Reroll all dice with Han ability again

Fourth : Han Solo cannot reroll the defence dice in order to have the good guess with C-3PO

... because Before your roll you guess, than you are correct or wrong, regardless of any reroll.

All this correct?

Still no other comments... but on a x-wing Facebook page, I've got an answer telling me that Solo card says "After you roll dice..." which is not the same as "After you reroll".

I tend to agree, seeing Sunny Bounder ability specifiying "... after you roll or reroll your dice...".

But then, 3 other cards must then respect that rules :

-Munitions Failsafe must be use after you roll attack dice BEFORE you could reroll any dice with a lock or Lone Wolf (Lone Wolf triggers when modifing dice, so too late)

-Colonel Vessery must aquire a lock BEFORE rerolling any dice, which means he CANNOT REAQUIRE LOCK AFTER SPENDING ONE

-4-LOM crew must use his ability BEFORE rerolling any dice (minor but still)

Waiting for official clarification or anyone to comment on all this.

11 minutes ago, Djemai said:

Still no other comments... but on a x-wing Facebook page, I've got an answer telling me that Solo card says "After you roll dice..." which is not the same as "After you reroll".

I tend to agree, seeing Sunny Bounder ability specifiying "... after you roll or reroll your dice...".

But then, 3 other cards must then respect that rules :

-Munitions Failsafe must be use after you roll attack dice BEFORE you could reroll any dice with a lock or Lone Wolf (Lone Wolf triggers when modifing dice, so too late)

-Colonel Vessery must aquire a lock BEFORE rerolling any dice, which means he CANNOT REAQUIRE LOCK AFTER SPENDING ONE

-4-LOM crew must use his ability BEFORE rerolling any dice (minor but still)

Waiting for official clarification or anyone to comment on all this.

Yes, rolling is different from rerolling, otherwise why include both on Sunny?

Failsafe, 4-LOM (crew) and Vessery all occur directly after (and only after) the initial roll, along with Han’s ability.

On 1/19/2019 at 7:27 PM, Djemai said:

All this correct?

First : Han Solo reroll can be use after :

-rolling for an attack - Yes

-rolling for a defence - Yes

-rolling for an obstacle - Yes

-rolling for action like Lando or R2-D2 - Yes

-or even after a reroll from lock or lone wolf ability to reroll a die. - No

Second : Han Solo reroll can be use multiple time on same attack like : - No (only after rolling the dice, not after re-rolling the dice.)

Third : Han Solo can reroll on 2 attacks occuring in the same turn : - Yes (There is no per round limit on the ability)

Fourth : Han Solo cannot reroll the defence dice in order to have the good guess with C-3PO - Correct (C-3PO is after rolling dice, not rerolling dice.)

And what about HAN vs. MIDNIGHT ???

As discussed recently in: https://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/comments/alps9j/han_vs_midnight_rules_question/

Does Midnight prevent Han's reroll (which isn't a reroll)?!

As I'll be facing this on Saturday - please help me clarity this...!!

Han's pilot ability:
After you roll dice, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, you may reroll all of your dice. This does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects.
Midnight:
While you defend or perform an attack, if you have a lock on the enemy ship, that ship’s dice cannot be modified.

Han might not be a re-roll in the traditional sense but it is still dice modification

On 2/1/2019 at 4:55 PM, benlane17 said:

Han might not be a re-roll in the traditional sense but it is still dice modification

No, because modification specifics:

Adding

Changing

Removing

Re-rolling

Han's reroll is none of these things as it specificay states it is not a reroll.

3 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

No, because modification specifics:

Adding

Changing

Removing

Re-rolling

Han's reroll is none of these things as it specificay states it is not a reroll.

it doesn't state it's not a reroll, it states it's not a reroll for the purpose of other abilities. it's still a reroll - and as such, it's a modification.

midnight states "that ship's dice cannot be modified.".

as per the golden rules on page two of the rules reference:
"If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects"

so midnights effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by hans ability.

4 hours ago, meffo said:

it doesn't state it's not a reroll, it states it's not a reroll for the purpose of other abilities. it's still a reroll - and as such, it's a modification.

midnight states "that ship's dice cannot be modified.".

as per the golden rules on page two of the rules reference:
"If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects"

so midnights effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by hans ability.

Actually, it states that it's not a re-roll foe the putposes of other game effects. Midnights ability is a game effect, so Han is not re-rolling.

As he's not re-rolling, he's not modifying dice. He can also re-roll with blinded pilot.

3 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

Actually, it states that it's not a re-roll foe the putposes of other game effects. Midnights ability is a game effect, so Han is not re-rolling.

As he's not re-rolling, he's not modifying dice. He can also re-roll with blinded pilot.

midnights ability is a pilot ability that checks for modifications, rerolls or not. hans pilot ability is a modification, reroll or not. midnights ability states "cannot". therefore it overrides hans ability as per the golden rule.

the exact same thing goes for blinded pilot. it doesn't care if a reroll happens, only checks for modifications. it also says "cannot" and so it overrides hans ability. hans ability is a modification, since it's a reroll, even though it's not a reroll for the purpose of other abilities.

57 minutes ago, meffo said:

midnights ability is a pilot ability that checks for modifications, rerolls or not. hans pilot ability is a modification, reroll or not. midnights ability states "cannot". therefore it overrides hans ability as per the golden rule.

the exact same thing goes for blinded pilot. it doesn't care if a reroll happens, only checks for modifications. it also says "cannot" and so it overrides hans ability. hans ability is a modification, since it's a reroll, even though it's not a reroll for the purpose of other abilities.

But you're missing the part where modification is defined.

Looking above, 'modification' is very clearly defined to include 're-rolls', 'adding', 'subtracting' and 'changing.' Given that Han's pilot ability specifically states that it is not a re-roll for game effects - which includes pilot abilities, target locks etc, it doesn't fall into the category of a modification.

The whole 'cannot' arguement is flawed as the rules say you cannot re-roll a re-roll! `So Han can't be a re-roll.

Han is stupidly and annoyingly badly written, basically,. putting him in a limbo where he both is and isn't a modification.

He could have been so much better worded, if he just said 'you can reroll these dice again' rather than 'this doesn't count as a reroll'.

1 hour ago, The Penguin UK said:

But you're missing the part where modification is defined.

Looking above, 'modification' is very clearly defined to include 're-rolls', 'adding', 'subtracting' and 'changing.' Given that Han's pilot ability specifically states that it is not a re-roll for game effects - which includes pilot abilities, target locks etc, it doesn't fall into the category of a modification.

The whole 'cannot' arguement is flawed as the rules say you cannot re-roll a re-roll! `So Han can't be a re-roll.

han is a reroll, even though it's not a reroll for the purpose of other effects. defining a mechanic is not an effect, so hans reroll is a modification.

there is nothing on his card about game effects and neither hans nor midnights abilities are game effects. the abilities are owned by the player who's fielding the ships.

the cannot-argument is not flawed at all, it simply follows the golden rules, which also state that text on cards take precendence over text in the rules documentation.

8 minutes ago, meffo said:

han is a reroll, even though it's not a reroll for the purpose of other effects. defining a mechanic is not an effect, so hans reroll is a modification.

there is nothing on his card about game effects and neither hans nor midnights abilities are game effects. the abilities are owned by the player who's fielding the ships.

the cannot-argument is not flawed at all, it simply follows the golden rules, which also state that text on cards take precendence over text in the rules documentation.

I... wait... what...? How can Han be a reroll whilst also not being a reroll? That just doesn't make sense at all.

There is something on his card about other effects:

If anything, that fact that it says 'effects' rather than 'game effects' reinforces my point. Han is not a reroll for game effects - it is, in effect, just a roll. Midnight is an effect that stops you rerolling, but as Han is not a reroll, it doesn't stop you from doing that.

28 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

I... wait... what...? How can Han be a reroll whilst also not being a reroll? That just doesn't make sense at all.

There is something on his card about other effects: 

If anything, that fact that it says 'effects' rather than 'game effects' reinforces my point. Han is not a reroll for game effects - it is, in effect, just a roll. Midnight is an effect that stops you rerolling, but as Han is not a reroll, it doesn't stop you from doing that.

it's a reroll that doesn't count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects. yup, it's that dumb.

yes, the rerolling doesn't count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects. it's still a modification, though, since classifying something as a modification is not an effect.

i'm sorry, just trying to keep my language consistent. game effects are effects that happen no matter what, such as removing round tokens at the start of the end phase. most effects are owned by one player or another, so they're not game effects, which is very relevant for the ability queue among other things. that's besides the point, though.

hans ability is definitely not a roll. rolls and rerolls are different things. it's a reroll, but doesn't count as a reroll for other effects such as predator, using a lock, someone popping l337 on you etc.

again, midnight says "cannot". it's on a card, not in the rules, which pretty much makes it the highest magnitude of authority according to the rules. blinded pilot is up there with the absolute authority that the rules reference tells us a "cannot" on a card constitutes.

midnight and blinded pilot doesn't just stop you from rerolling, they stop you from modifying your dice. period. unless you don't care about vision and modify that focus result with the power of the force in the case of blinded pilot.

since a reroll is a dice modification, even though it doesn't count as a reroll - and midnight and blinded pilot say you cannot modify your dice, han is out of luck, he cannot perform his reroll that's not a reroll since it's a modification and there is another card saying he cannot.

the golden rules are super relevant for this interaction. please allow me to present them in all their glory:

GOLDEN RULES

If a rule in this guide contradicts the Rulebook, the rule in this guide takes precedence.

If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence.

If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

During an attack or while otherwise resolving an effect involving dice, each die cannot be rerolled more than once.

7 hours ago, meffo said:

it's a reroll that doesn't count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects. yup, it's that dumb.

yes, the rerolling doesn't count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects. it's still a modification, though, since classifying something as a modification is not an effect.

i'm sorry, just trying to keep my language consistent. game effects are effects that happen no matter what, such as removing round tokens at the start of the end phase. most effects are owned by one player or another, so they're not game effects, which is very relevant for the ability queue among other things. that's besides the point, though.

hans ability is definitely not a roll. rolls and rerolls are different things. it's a reroll, but doesn't count as a reroll for other effects such as predator, using a lock, someone popping l337 on you etc.

again, midnight says "cannot". it's on a card, not in the rules, which pretty much makes it the highest magnitude of authority according to the rules. blinded pilot is up there with the absolute authority that the rules reference tells us a "cannot" on a card constitutes.

midnight and blinded pilot doesn't just stop you from rerolling, they stop you from modifying your dice. period. unless you don't care about vision and modify that focus result with the power of the force in the case of blinded pilot.

since a reroll is a dice modification, even though it doesn't count as a reroll - and midnight and blinded pilot say you cannot modify your dice, han is out of luck, he cannot perform his reroll that's not a reroll since it's a modification and there is another card saying he cannot.

the golden rules are super relevant for this interaction. please allow me to present them in all their glory:

GOLDEN RULES

If a rule in this guide contradicts the Rulebook, the rule in this guide takes precedence.

If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence.

If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

During an attack or while otherwise resolving an effect involving dice, each die cannot be rerolled more than once.

Never mind, I give up. You're just ignoring the definition of modifying dice. Posting the golden rule is laughable as well, because Hn instantly breaks rule 4.

And you also state that Han has to follow midnight because it's an ability, but then discuss how he can re-roll L337, predator etc. That's not consistent at all.

We'll have to agree to disagree, as it'll probably require an FAQ.

You will never agree because you're both right. Han both is and isn't a modification.

Han is a poorly worded mess.

4 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

Never mind, I give up. You're just ignoring the definition of modifying dice. Posting the golden rule is laughable as well, because Hn instantly breaks rule 4.

And you also state that Han has to follow midnight because it's an ability, but then discuss how he can re-roll L337, predator etc. That's not consistent at all.

We'll have to agree to disagree, as it'll probably require an FAQ.

i'm not ignoring the definition of modifying dice at all. hans reroll that's not a reroll is definitely a modification since it's a reroll, even though it doesn't count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects. please explain to me how defining an effect as a modification is an effect in and of itself.

it's very consistent, since neither predator or l337 uses the word "cannot", those abilities fall well within hans clause of "for the purpose of other effects". this means han can reroll, then reroll again with predator, or l337 can make him reroll again.

since the golden rules state that card text trumps rules text, hans ability follows the golden rules excellently by breaking them. the reason i posted them was because i think his pilot ability primarily affect the golden rules, just like zari bangels ability primarily affect the rules of overlapping.

han follows the second golden rule, which states that card abilities take precedence. hans ability need to follow midnights and blinded pilots abilities according to the third golden rule, which states that "cannot" is an absolute effect. hans ability intentionally breaks the fourth golden rule, letting his dice be rerolled more than once, in accordance with the second golden rule.

hans ability is pretty great. he can reroll pretty much any dice he rolls once for free. it even lets him reroll again with other effects, such as a lock. that's pretty unique. everyone that likes fat han will always try to get more out of his ability, which is certainly easy since it's pretty badly written.

i would love to understand your reasoning and verify how it's based in the rules. i'm sorry to say i don't see it. i think his pilot ability works with the rules as it's written. of course clarification is always desirable.

42 minutes ago, meffo said:

i'm not ignoring the definition of modifying dice at all. hans reroll that's not a reroll is definitely a modification since it's a reroll, even though it doesn't count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects. please explain to me how defining an effect as a modification is an effect

This is where your arguement falls down. Either it's a reroll or it isn't - it can't be both.

It's not a modification as it's not a reroll. Midnight forbids modifications, but Han isn't modding his dice by definition.

@meffo - Right or wrong, the argument for Midnight not working against Han's ability is:

1. Per RR, dice modifications are one of 4 things: Add, Change, Reroll, or Spend.
2. Han's ability says "...This does not count as rerolling for other effects."
   1. Assumption: Pilot abilities are "other effects"
3. Midnight's ability says "While you defend or perform an attack, if you have a lock on the enemy ship, that ship’s dice cannot be modified."
   1. Substituting the 4 possible things a modification can be into Midnight's text: "...that ship's dice cannot be [Added, Changed, Rerolled, or Spent]."
4. What Han is doing doesn't count as a reroll in this context (the context being the "other effect" of Midnight's ability).
5. Since it doesn't count as a reroll and it isn't an Add, Change, or Spend Midnight doesn't work.

The core of it being that by not counting as a reroll it ceases to be a modification.

23 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

This is where your arguement falls down. Either it's a reroll or it isn't - it can't be both.

 

It's not a modification as it's not a reroll. Midnight forbids modifications, but Han isn't modding his dice by definition.

it's what the card says. it's a reroll that doesn't count as a reroll. it's not a reroll that's not considered a reroll.

it's where the language on his card falls down.

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

You will never agree because you're both right. Han both is and isn't a modification.

Han is a poorly worded mess.

Wow. Reading through this discussion, I can't help but agree.

3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Wow. Reading through this discussion, I can't help but agree.

I do as well to be honest. Han shouldn't work, but by the RAW, he does, at least IMO.

21 minutes ago, KiAdiMoody said:

@meffo - Right or wrong, the argument for Midnight not working against Han's ability is:

1. Per RR, dice modifications are one of 4 things: Add, Change, Reroll, or Spend.
2. Han's ability says "...This does not count as rerolling for other effects."
   1. Assumption: Pilot abilities are "other effects"
3. Midnight's ability says "While you defend or perform an attack, if you have a lock on the enemy ship, that ship’s dice cannot be modified."
   1. Substituting the 4 possible things a modification can be into Midnight's text: "...that ship's dice cannot be [Added, Changed, Rerolled, or Spent]."
4. What Han is doing doesn't count as a reroll in this context (the context being the "other effect" of Midnight's ability).
5. Since it doesn't count as a reroll and it isn't an Add, Change, or Spend Midnight doesn't work.

The core of it being that by not counting as a reroll it ceases to be a modification.

i really like that. thank you for clarifying in such a nice way.

1. yes, 100% agree.
2. yes, midnights ability is an effect that stops modification. 100% agree.
3. yes, that's what his pilot ability says. if you substitute the word modification that's a bit of an assumption of how the rules work. that's fine, though.
4. doesn't count as a reroll, but is it a reroll? i would say yes, it's a reroll, even though it doesn't count as one. therefore, it's a modification.
5. midnight says "cannot", so midnights effect is definitely absolute and overides other cards texts and text in the rules reference.

that's what it comes down to, yes. is it a modification or not?

just noticed something else that's interesting. contrary to my previous statements, blinded pilot does not use the word "cannot". it says:

"While you perform an attack, you can modify your dice only by spending force for their default effect.

Action: Repair this card."

which leads me to believe that if his ability is not considered a modification, han could actually reroll his attack dice even while affected by blinded pilot.

so, is hans ability a modification?