9 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

And preferable to anything else I can imagine as likely for Empire right now.

Except Solo is before ROTJ. That's like saying clone troopers are an update to stormtrooper armor.

Why? I used to do that with SW and other IP's. But I find that, the less I keep track of the (current, temporary) annals of pretend history, the happier I usually am. I'd rather use the brain space on something else. Every time I mention that these models existed, people lose it. It's weird. I don't actually think its likely FFG will make them. But I do think unarmored imperial infantry is preferable to yet more armored ones. Though I'll agree that mudtroopers would be greatly preferable to any more stormtrooper variants.

They prolly saw ROTJ though.

They didn't make one that I know of but that game is hard to keep track of. It's easy to forget things considering the 500 or so minis they produced. They barely made any naval troops, and only a couple imperial pilots were made. Something about cost-averaging for the pre-paints probably really favored storm/lone troopers and their variants.

I think they actually made more tusken raiders, than they did navy troops.

At any rate so far, this game (and the ROTJ army uniform) is set in the GCW era, which is post- Solo. As for being "mired" in the 80's... So far, almost all Legion models are from the 1980's, or from R1 which very closely stuck to an OT aesthetic. Given that, the AT-RT might be the only entirely non-1980's thing in the game right now. This hasn't made it feel "mired in the 80's". By drawing on the visual sources they did, and usually avoiding fashion-based choices, they did a very good job making the OT look timeless.

To break down the mud costume, the visuals are very similar to the older concept, in terms of the helmet, the guns, and a lot of little details that all came from the 70's or 80's. Even the visual style of the breastplate is from ESB. I don't think they are visually incongruous in any way with WEG army troops and frankly if someone sold 25mm metal versions of them, I'd buy a squad or two for my WEG games. I don't have an issue with the actual costume design in and of itself.

But they are too heavily armored to provide the variety I'm seeking in new imperial releases in Legion.

The prequels suddenly made a lot of things not fit. This is basically the reason I stopped having any concern for the very notion of a SW canon. The prequels pulled the rug out from under a bunch of the OT, let alone the EU. Unarmored is still the way for imperial navy (despite stormtroopers wearing "armored spacesuits") and for the rebellion, and the army troops shown in in ROTJ. As more movies come out (like Solo), each with its own behind-the-scenes problems and goals, reconciling them into a sensible and absolute set of rules for a gaming universe is going to require increasing amounts of mental gymnastics.

They can't "upgrade" something by showing what it looked like several years in the past. This highly averse reaction everyone has to the old notion of the imperial army is a good example of the disturbing trend to want to memorize the films and use that knowledge as a straight-jacket. I liked it better when they were more of a jumping-off point. Gaming (even heavily-IP based gaming) used to a little more about getting out a notebook and creating something.

If we accept that the empire is the size it's currently purported to be, more man-hours of human history unfold in an imperial year, than in all of Terran human history. Given that, it's statistically very unlikely that there would not be regional and temporal differences in the imperial military machine as relatively minor as WEG army vs. Solo army uniforms. I'm not mad they added the mud uniform, I think the retcon to get rid of the other one is bizarre since there's no good reason both couldn't/wouldn't exist. The films and all other media forms show what would be considered a statistically insignificant sample size of the inhabited SW universe, if we accept it's size according to approved lore. I find it very narrow to think these uniforms need to be retconned and ironed out into a neat and tidy package of trivia questions.

Add mudtroopers, great. Discard army troopers? That's dirty pool. I mean c'mon, these aren't the hoojibs we're talking about. Duloks and Jaxxon are still canon, but a squad of men who appeared in ROTJ running around with a slightly different job than what we saw onscreen, that is a bridge too far? What is happening? Most of the bounty hunters had less screen time than those ROTJ army guys.

Yep.. I know I did see this guy in Return of the Jedi. Doing exactly what, and really only that, as noted by his original action figure release.

I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. Back in the day, as a kid even, I saw the weg army trooper and thought “why?” If you have thousands (probably millions) of storm troopers in armour why do we need these guys? Then as I got older, and played video games, even fan films, I never saw these guys. But to some, who can't let go of the past, they are SUPER important to Star Wars. To me they are drivers to the AT-ST. But so many people wanted an imperial army trooper, and Solo delivered it. Changing them to modern visual styling and mentality of a soldier actually wearing armour in a combat zone. Not to mention giving a good reason why stormtroopers were always more numerous, but this army trooper existed too, even if it was mentioned it was being phased out. I was delighted by this. Fans that loved the army trooper got what The canon appearance for their nostagia, I got my memories of stormtroopers being the empire default soldier. It seems like win/win.

1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

This is literally the only time something resembling an Imperial Army Trooper as it were has appeared in a movie.

The presence of Army ground troops had been alluded to in canon before SOLO, but in no way did it claim to be these guys.

Mudtroopers fit the idea of an Imperial Army Trooper better than these guys do, if only because the Mudtrooper armour is more similar to the armour of the Generals shown in the movies.

However, due to the similarity of the armour of all three examples (Battle-armoured Officers, Mudtroopers and AT-ST drivers) it stands to reason that the AT-ST driver is part of the Imperial Army, just a "tanker" rather than a "trooper".

Skullforge has some waist up of several of these guys.

They look super cool.

12 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

The prequels suddenly made a lot of things not fit. This is basically the reason I stopped having any concern for the very notion of a SW canon. The prequels pulled the rug out from under a bunch of the OT, let alone the EU. Unarmored is still the way for imperial navy (despite stormtroopers wearing "armored spacesuits") and for the rebellion, and the army troops shown in in ROTJ. As more movies come out (like Solo), each with its own behind-the-scenes problems and goals, reconciling them into a sensible and absolute set of rules for a gaming universe is going to require increasing amounts of mental gymnastics.

3

Naval troopers historically have always worn less kit than line infantry, no matter the nation or situation. The Rebels also wear less kit than the Empire because they're exactly that, an underfunded Rebellion. Later depictions of New Republic forces frequently had them wearing armor, so it still fits. Using the AT-ST driver in RotJ isn't the best argument, because while I'll totally agree they are likely "Imperial Army," that doesn't make them automatically infantry. Imperial Army troops are mentioned in several EU works, but their appearance is usually left vague. The Mudtrooper look is again a great way of taking the old Imperial Army look, and making it fit.

11 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

It makes sense to have a fleet trooper or imperial navy troooer in light kit.

But an army trooper should look more like a mudtrooper than an at-st driver.

Thank you for posting this. Exactly the point I was trying to make.

9 hours ago, Kingsguard said:

I agree though which officer are you referring to?

Historically, yes because wearing heavy gear on a ship can lead to drowning. Space doesn't have that same issue though.

The LT that snapped at Solo for asking a question. Doesn't fit if these guys are supposed to be planetary security or Clone Wars veterans since Solo asked a totally reasonable question about their objective. It would make more sense if these guys are actually conscripts, and the officers are trying to squash every form of insubordination.

And lighter equipped Naval Infantry and landing parties really doesn't have anything to do with them drowning. Naval landing forces are historically lighter equipped because they're not supposed to be used as front line troops for long periods of time. Their primary purpose is as security onboard ship, or to provide a bit more manpower during amphibious operations. These guys would still be much lighter equipped even after long periods of deployment. A good case in point is the picture below.

These are US sailors put ashore as naval infantry in North Russia during/after WWI. They are still much lighter equipped than a Doughboy of the time would have been (lacking helmets, SBRs, and packs), even though they are armed well enough that this has to be quite a while into their stay. (the BAR and Trenchgun were incredibly rare during the war, and unlikely that the Navy would get any until after Nov. 11, 1918.)

Bringing this back to Star Wars, these guys are our Imperial Fleet/Naval/Death Star troopers deployed to bolster front line troops. The AT-ST drivers are vehicle crewmen of the Imperial Army, and the Mudtroopers are combat-equipped Imperial Army infantry, with some specialized equipment (masks, goggles, etc) for Mimban.

And, I have to say, as a WWI reenactor, being able to talk both the Great War and Star Wars at the same time is freaking awesome. 😁

41 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

Skullforge has some waist up of several of these guys.

They look super cool.

yeah, his imperial driver line looks pretty cool

(don't tell tauntaun they are drivers though)

I think also, the term mudtrooper is more of a self deprecating nickname like doughboy or groundpounder than an actual unit designation like snowtrooper.

2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Naval troopers historically have always worn less kit than line infantry, no matter the nation or situation. The Rebels also wear less kit than the Empire because they're exactly that, an underfunded Rebellion. Later depictions of New Republic forces frequently had them wearing armor, so it still fits. Using the AT-ST driver in RotJ isn't the best argument, because while I'll totally agree they are likely "Imperial Army," that doesn't make them automatically infantry. Imperial Army troops are mentioned in several EU works, but their appearance is usually left vague. The Mudtrooper look is again a great way of taking the old Imperial Army look, and making it fit.

Thank you for posting this. Exactly the point I was trying to make.

The LT that snapped at Solo for asking a question. Doesn't fit if these guys are supposed to be planetary security or Clone Wars veterans since Solo asked a totally reasonable question about their objective. It would make more sense if these guys are actually conscripts, and the officers are trying to squash every form of insubordination.

And lighter equipped Naval Infantry and landing parties really doesn't have anything to do with them drowning. Naval landing forces are historically lighter equipped because they're not supposed to be used as front line troops for long periods of time. Their primary purpose is as security onboard ship, or to provide a bit more manpower during amphibious operations. These guys would still be much lighter equipped even after long periods of deployment. A good case in point is the picture below.

My reference is more earlier history. Even wealthy officers aboard a ship who owned full suits of armor would very rarely wear them aboard a ship. At most you'd see soldier or knight wearing a helm and breastplate because if he fell overboard he could quickly unfasten the breastplate and ditch it rather than sink to the bottom in full plate armor. Drowning was very much a concern of marines and officers in those days.

As for the officer, I wonder if that was the first time Solo had mouthed off. It's entirely possible and very likely that that statement was just the latest in a long history of insubordination.

2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

And, I have to say, as a WWI reenactor, being able to talk both the Great War and Star Wars at the same time is freaking awesome. 😁

Oh, nice. Don't see too many WWI reenactors. Do you go as a US soldier? Or one from another nation?

34 minutes ago, Kingsguard said:

Oh, nice. Don't see too many WWI reenactors. Do you go as a US soldier? Or one from another nation?

I hope he's a Croatian grenadier 😜

I'd rather have Dark Troopers

19 hours ago, Kingsguard said:

My reference is more earlier history. Even wealthy officers aboard a ship who owned full suits of armor would very rarely wear them aboard a ship. At most you'd see soldier or knight wearing a helm and breastplate because if he fell overboard he could quickly unfasten the breastplate and ditch it rather than sink to the bottom in full plate armor. Drowning was very much a concern of marines and officers in those days.

1

OK, I getcha.

19 hours ago, Kingsguard said:

As for the officer, I wonder if that was the first time Solo had mouthed off. It's entirely possible and very likely that that statement was just the latest in a long history of insubordination.

Entirely possible, but if that's the case, the officer handled it in the worse possible way, making a bigger issue, and giving Solo more room to gripe than nipping it in the bud. Again, his reaction is that of a career, hardline officer that cares not for his men, not an Imperialized planetary security force officer or Clone Wars veteran. I guess I see the contradiction is that the unit comes off more like a Soviet or Nazi Germany penal battalion rather than a National Guard unit.

19 hours ago, Kingsguard said:

Oh, nice. Don't see too many WWI reenactors. Do you go as a US soldier? Or one from another nation?

Until recently (ie, the Centennial) it was an underrepresented era. My primary focus is as an American Doughboy, though I do have a spare uniform and kit for a British Tommy. It helps that I'm actually only a few hours away from the National World War I Museum and Memorial in Kansas City, Missouri, so I regularly get to do events there.

Can't believe this is still a fresh thread. Note to self, every time I mention the old army trooper models, havoc ensues.

I still stand by these points:

• Narrowly interpreting what we see in films is reading too much from too few tea leaves and/or represents a failure of imagination
• More modelling options are better than fewer modeling options
• Films should be inspiration, not limitation: Leia never shot Palpatine in the movies but we have that in our games
• The old and new powers that be have shown disregard for maintaining a strong sense of continuity over the last 20 years, so I'm unconcerned with what something "really" is in this particular fictional universe
• Far stranger things than those old AT-ST driver uniforms having multiple roles were kept in the post-Disney canon
• I didn't say anything insulting with my initial response and if people could find that insulting, it indicates placing extreme value on conformity for it's own sake

I don't think you said anything insulting. I am just respectfully disagreeing with you. I think that the mudtroopers are a much better snd much LESS narrow extrapolation of army troopers from atst driver and veers than the weg troopers. I also think they provide MORE variety as a 1/2 or 3/4 armored trooper that can fall between navy trooper and stormtrooper. I do think that a more "standard" mudtrooper might be nice ( no rain gear, goggles or respirators) perhaps ffg could add alternate heads and optional cloaks to reflect that.

2 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

I don't think you said anything insulting.

Not by you, but it was mentioned.

2 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

I also think they provide MORE variety as a 1/2 or 3/4 armored trooper that can fall between navy trooper and stormtrooper.

I'll agree with that, but with the caveat if we already had naval troopers . Which we don't and I'm scared we won't get given what we saw in SW:IA. Navy troopers woulda been friggin' perfect for that game. Especially compared to a lot of what was included.

The problem with Imperial Navy Troopers is how do you make them distinct from Rebel Fleet Troopers?

They are wearing the same helmet spray painted black and have the same gun (due to the low budget of ANH). They would literally just be re-skinned Fleet Troopers. It would be too much faction parity. Sure, you could mix up which heavy weapons they have but it still wouldn't be that different.

I'm in favor of mud troopers or shore troopers, they've got light enough armor to justify rolling a white die w/ surge and different variations of the E-11 to mix up their weapon options. Shore troopers could be a corps with scout 1 or 2. Mud troopers could have courage 1 and Dauntless to represent their role as panicky canon fodder used to rush objectives.

I'm not against having the old style Imperial Army troopers show up, I just don't think they would add anything really flavorful to the game beyond just being a cheaper corps with E-11s. Then again, They managed to make Snowtroopers unique compared to Stormtroopers so I guess anything is possible.

It is a different helmet. Much wider and with cheese grater holes drilled in the front. Actually looking at it from certain angles, it almost seems a little samurai-ish. FFG seems to be giving units abilities and keywords based on the "feel" of the unit (I actually think this is a much better idea for a star wars game than trying to actually simulate anything). We see snowtroopers slowly advancing through Hoth base in ESB so they are represented in game as a slow steady assault unit. We see fleet troopers rapidly firing in close combat in ANH so in game they are given lots of dice to chuck at close range. So what is the "feel" of a navy trooper? We see them manning technical equipment and guarding a bunker. I am sure they could come up with something that captures the general "feel" of them.

1 hour ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

The problem with Imperial Navy Troopers is how do you make them distinct from Rebel Fleet Troopers?

By putting them in a different faction where they'd interact differently with a different set of allied models. Give them different surges, different keywords, different attack dice. Don't give them a gear slot but give them a comms slot. Just because they have the same model blaster as another squad doesn't mean they have the same training: they could be sculpted with this gun but given attack dice which are unlike other units that have it.

There's a lot more to squad stats than the white unarmored defense die they'd presumably share with rebels.

There's no reason to think these would be a Fleet Trooper "re-skin" (hate that term) any more than we should think the troopers from Solo must necessarily be a "re-skin" of something else.

But here's the thing. Maybe you're worst fears are true and they AREN'T distinct. But plenty of companies can sell Republican Roman archers and Imperial Roman archers and Carthaginian archers and Ptolemaic Egyptian archers, which all use the same stats, and no ones cries foul. This is a miniature wargame, not a CCG or something. The physical models are a very real driver of the endeavor. A cool model is its own justification.

Quote

They are wearing the same helmet spray painted black

No it's different. Vaguely the same shape but it's not the same. A New Hope had a budget of $11 million, not bad for the time. Now The Blair Witch Project , that was a low budget movie at about $60k, some 20 years later.

Quote

I'm not against having the old style Imperial Army troopers show up, I just don't think they would add anything really flavorful

They would if we don't get navy troops. Ie, a totally different (cloth) visual surface to work with. Keywords and surges aren't all there is to the flavor of a new unit. I (and many others) don't even consider stats (beyond force organization charts) when I shop for models. Yes, I do own two snowspeeders!

That is a good point. The dice each unit throws is not just based on the weapon they are holding. It also takes into account the quality of the chump holding it.

On 1/21/2019 at 3:10 PM, That Blasted Samophlange said:

If you have thousands (probably millions) of storm troopers in armour why do we need these guys?

Because Millions of Stormtroopers can't secure you an 70mio Systems Empire.
Thats where the "tens of trillions" of army troopers come into play.

Easy Navy Troopers who aren't Fleet Trooper carbon-copies:

Dirt cheap. (7-8 pts per man? 28-32 pts for 4-man unit)

White defense.

Standard DH-17s with 2 white dice per.

No surges.

Maybe give them a keyword.

2 Personnel upgrade slots. (2 extra dudes? Comm specialist? Officer? Droids? Up to you)

Voila, garbage-tier cheap troops. Fits the Empire and fits their on-screen performance as dudes who mostly just get shot, and provides an interesting strategic option for Imperial players in contrast with relatively-expensive Stormtroopers.

Though I'd still like to see the Mudtroopers as an in-between, cheap-ish but serviceable infantry option for Empire.

2 hours ago, BCGaius said:

Easy Navy Troopers who aren't Fleet Trooper carbon-copies:

Dirt cheap. (7-8 pts per man? 28-32 pts for 4-man unit)

White defense.

Standard DH-17s with 2 white dice per.

No surges.

Maybe give them a keyword.

2 Personnel upgrade slots. (2 extra dudes? Comm specialist? Officer? Droids? Up to you)

Voila, garbage-tier cheap troops. Fits the Empire and fits their on-screen performance as dudes who mostly just get shot, and provides an interesting strategic option for Imperial players in contrast with relatively-expensive Stormtroopers.

Though I'd still like to see the Mudtroopers as an in-between, cheap-ish but serviceable infantry option for Empire.

multiple personnel upgrades does make them able to fulfill the "manning tech equipment, security and standing around" feel.

add com tech and officer and have them support other corps units, or droids to support in other ways

I like it.

I think multiple personnel slots is the way to go. For Mudtroopers, you can just fill them with extra troops, and presto, a large mass of cannon fodder. For Fleet troopers, fill them with specialists for a more "specialized" roll. Assuming that keeping them distinct from Rebel Fleet troopers is a needed goal (and I'm far, far from certain it is needed) just giving them different heavy weapons and a different keyword would do the trick.

Aye. You could just give them the Unhindered keyword and make them speed 2. Then make them a cheap unit that can be taken in larger squads.

4 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

I think multiple personnel slots is the way to go. For Mudtroopers, you can just fill them with extra troops, and presto, a large mass of cannon fodder. For Fleet troopers, fill them with specialists for a more "specialized" roll. Assuming that keeping them distinct from Rebel Fleet troopers is a needed goal (and I'm far, far from certain it is needed) just giving them different heavy weapons and a different keyword would do the trick.

heavy weapon:

KX security droid,

2 hitpoints ( or more?) just for that mini. strong melee attack. cannot fire with the rest of the unit keeps the navy troopers in the fight longer but does not give them more ranged dice. or burn through navy troopers and get it into melee. will need a keyword so medical droids do not work on it but astromechs do?

we see them do patrol duty and security but not asigned to stormy squads while doing sort of the same role the navy troopers seemed to do on the ground on endor.

12 hours ago, Geressen said:

multiple personnel upgrades does make them able to fulfill the "manning tech equipment, security and standing around" feel.

add com tech and officer and have them support other corps units, or droids to support in other ways

I like it.

I think giving them a comm upgrade slot is the ideal way. That they don't need a comms officer, because they all are trained more than the average stormtrooper at using that stuff. But don't let them take gear like grapping hooks.