Anyone else think the Empire should get the trooper unit Han Solo served with in Solo?

Not anytime soon. I think we should get the imperial navy troops. Barring that I want ROTJ AT-ST pilots running around on the ground with guns. Those are the imperial army infantry I was raised on. But navy Troopers seem more likely than either in my opinion, and would please me just as well (or more) as ye olde ROTJ army troops.

Empire has, once the tank comes out, 7 products dealing with armored rank and file soldiery. 8 if you count royal guards, which is debatable. Someday when generic officers come out, they'll have ONE product dealing with unarmored soldiery.

"Mud" troopers wear a decent amount of armor. The second of product X should come before the 8th of product Y. The Legion miniatures line is getting artistically stagnant for no good reason.

But FFG has shown via SW:IA, and now SW:L, that they have a serious fetish for brainwashed men in vacuform plastic. So probably instead of any of the above we'll get shoretroopers, oartroopers, coretroopers, moretroopers, nortroopers, wartroopers, loretroopers, doortroopers, roartroopers, floortroopers, goretroopers, and woretroopers.

If the contract with Disney lasts long enough though, eventually EVERYTHING will get made.

6 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Not anytime soon. I think we should get the imperial navy troops. Barring that I want ROTJ AT-ST pilots running around on the ground with guns. Those are the imperial army infantry I was raised on. But navy Troopers seem more likely than either in my opinion, and would please me just as well (or more) as ye olde ROTJ army troops.

Empire has, once the tank comes out, 7 products dealing with armored rank and file soldiery. 8 if you count royal guards, which is debatable. Someday when generic officers come out, they'll have ONE product dealing with unarmored soldiery.

"Mud" troopers wear a decent amount of armor. The second of product X should come before the 8th of product Y. The Legion miniatures line is getting artistically stagnant for no good reason.

But FFG has shown via SW:IA, and now SW:L, that they have a serious fetish for brainwashed men in vacuform plastic. So probably instead of any of the above we'll get shoretroopers, oartroopers, coretroopers, moretroopers, nortroopers, wartroopers, loretroopers, doortroopers, roartroopers, floortroopers, goretroopers, and woretroopers.

If the contract with Disney lasts long enough though, eventually EVERYTHING will get made.

I love how succinctly you insult others and deem what YOU grew up with as being superior.

Look, I get it you havet a SERIOUS fetish for West End Games. Personally, I have always thought the concept of a an unarmoured imperial army trooper, at best, superfluous.

I feel the mudtroopers from Solo are a really good update to the old imperial army trooper, witha decent in universe explanation as to why they exist alongside the standard soldier which is a Stormtrooper.

Now, while we NEVER see the old school imperial army trooper in any capacity as a foot soldier, I DO think there is a place in the game for an unit, which coincides with their ONLY onscreen appearance, that of a vehicle driver. I would be fine seeing these jumpsuit and bucket wearing units as an crew upgrade that allows them to exit a vehicle, say to capture an objective, or something that you can spawn after, say an AT-ST is destroyed.

I do kinda want to see oartroopers now...

10 minutes ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

I do kinda want to see oartroopers now...

They will come with space galleys in Armada!

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you insult others and deem what YOU grew up with as being superior.

I didn't insult Kingsguard or say the old stuff was superior. I said I wanted it. But also that Navy Troops would be more likely and better.

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Look, I get it you havet a SERIOUS fetish for West End Games.

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I.. thought the concept of a an armoured imperial army trooper... superfluous.... the mudtroopers from Solo are a really good update

Well the mudtroopers are armored so... which is it? Superfluous or a good update? I can't even follow whether you want these models to be done soon or not.

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to the old imperial army trooper, witha decent in universe explanation as to why they exist alongside the standard soldier which is a Stormtrooper.

We already had a good explanation for the old ones. People changed this in the canon for no good reason. I will only be swayed by scripture or plain reason, not popes and councils that have so often contradicted themselves.

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I DO think there is a place in the game for an unit, which coincides with their ONLY onscreen appearance,

There's plenty of things in Legion with zero onscreen appearances (such as rebels on AT-RT's) or being used in ways totally unlike their screen roles (certain characters acting like a lowly infantry lieutenant). But this gets back to my suggestion that the Navy troops are both more likely, and indeed preferable to me. They do have a lot more screen time to work with.

The screen should be a jumping off point, not a limitation. Otherwise we quickly fall into the old view of "The natural abilities of [alien race] make them excel as [profession we saw the only one in the movies hold]."

Anyways it's not really if but when. I'd wager if Legion is remotely as successful as X-Wing, we'll see evvvvvverythinnnnnnng eventually. By "eventually" I mean, in the next 5 years. Maybe not every little detail of everything, like, maybe we'll get Logray but not Chief Chirpa or something but we'll at least get some kind of ewoks. Maybe we'll get a squad of these Solo guys but no walker for them, or we'll just get a new generic officer in that uniform and no squad, or something. Etc. etc. etc.

Legion is still focused on GCW era. R1 takes place in the GCW. Therefore I think we'll only see OT and R1 stuff for awhile still.

I'd love to see the dudes from Solo, and they could very well be the thing that finally gets me to bite the bullet and build an Imperial force. I like Stormtroopers, and that new tank looks baller af, but I'd love to do a Veers/Major Gen. Eric (Major Jenn Ehrik? Maj. Gen. Ehr Rik? The possibilities are endless) army built around a core(corps?) of Solotroopers.

51 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

We already had a good explanation for the old ones. People changed this in the canon for no good reason. I will only be swayed by scripture or plain reason, not popes and councils that have so often contradicted themselves.

Woah religious shade thrown!

I'd like them as a cheaper Corps option for the Empire based around them being thrown up forward to try and get to an objective with them only getting an ability triggered for being suppressed or losing a mini as they try to survive while their commanders are using them as expendable troops. And they really don't have much in the way of armor so I could also see them rolling white dice instead of red for defense, overall I think they have comparable armor to that of a Scout Trooper since the Mud Troopers mostly are just wearing a helmet, chest piece and a few bits of armor on their shoulders and upper arms.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

I didn't insult Kingsguard or say the old stuff was superior. I said I wanted it. But also that Navy Troops would be more likely and better.

My WEG fetish is quite casual! It takes up only a small section of my closet!

It's really more that I stopped paying close attention to officialness after the prequels came out. Which coincides roughly with the timeline of WEG's death.

Well the mudtroopers are armored so... which is it? Superfluous or a good update? I can't even follow whether you want these models to be done soon or not.

We already had a good explanation for the old ones. People changed this in the canon for no good reason. I will only be swayed by scripture or plain reason, not popes and councils that have so often contradicted themselves.

There's plenty of things in Legion with zero onscreen appearances (such as rebels on AT-RT's) or being used in ways totally unlike their screen roles (certain characters acting like a lowly infantry lieutenant). But this gets back to my suggestion that the Navy troops are both more likely, and indeed preferable to me. They do have a lot more screen time to work with.

The screen should be a jumping off point, not a limitation. Otherwise we quickly fall into the old view of "The natural abilities of [alien race] make them excel as [profession we saw the only one in the movies hold]."

Anyways it's not really if but when. I'd wager if Legion is remotely as successful as X-Wing, we'll see evvvvvverythinnnnnnng eventually. By "eventually" I mean, in the next 5 years. Maybe not every little detail of everything, like, maybe we'll get Logray but not Chief Chirpa or something but we'll at least get some kind of ewoks. Maybe we'll get a squad of these Solo guys but no walker for them, or we'll just get a new generic officer in that uniform and no squad, or something. Etc. etc. etc.

Legion is still focused on GCW era. R1 takes place in the GCW. Therefore I think we'll only see OT and R1 stuff for awhile still.

I fixed my above post, the idea of UNarmoured troopers was superfluous. I missed the “UN” which changed the meaning.

I appreciate the mud troopers as explaining why they are not seen in any other media (phased out) while playing homage to the old WEG imperial armour trooper. It really is a good middle ground.

As to the old reasons for the need of a lesser trooper, is that not because storm troopers were supposedly (according to WEG) the best of the best? Which is confusing since there were the storm commandos which were then the best of the best of the best?

I will fully agree with you on the reasoning about seeing a species as a spy, and therefore all of them are that as being insipid — I fully agree, it is one of the points I loathe about WEG, and the old fiction. Along with the fact that if someone was on screen they obviously were personally subjugated by (or did the subjugating to) another in screen character - Case in point Admiral Akbar was formally the personal slave of Tarkin, designed the B-wing all by himself, AND a brilliant commander. 🙄

Another example; Willrow Hood - the ice cream maker guy, he just HAD to be carrying the central computer core to protect the Rebellion...

This is why I prefer the newer canon, while not perfect, so far much less of this mentality.

I really don't see FFG or Lucasfilm rehashing too much of WEG’s material directly, but updating and trying to blend the old and the new has been accomplished, sublimely I would say, by the mudtrooper. Recognizable by the old fans of the RPG, but updated and explained while being true to the multitudes of other media that say Stormtroopers are the rank and file soldier.

9 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Now, while we NEVER see the old school imperial army trooper in any capacity as a foot soldier, I DO think there is a place in the game for an unit, which coincides with their ONLY onscreen appearance, that of a vehicle driver. I would be fine seeing these jumpsuit and bucket wearing units as an crew upgrade that allows them to exit a vehicle, say to capture an objective, or something that you can spawn after, say an AT-ST is destroyed.

Look, I like to kick Tauntaun Scout around for his fetishes as much as the next guy, but this is simply not true.

The black uniform bucket head troopers are prominent in the Detention block AA-23 skirmish. They are visible in some sort of Marine/Guard capacity on the Star Destroyers in Empire, and are staffing the bunker on Endor. When Han does his deception and the commander sends "three squads to help" about 2/3 of the guys who run out the back door are the same Black Uniform, Wide Helmet, no armor guys we see. Finally for onscreen representation there are a large contingent of these same guys present when Han and Leia are paraded out of the bunker.
They are also present in existing FFG art assets, with a specific example of their presence on the "Boarding Troopers" upgrade card for Armada.

So, maybe back off this one. He's right. These guys would be good. So would Mud Troopers

While the Stormtrooper is the iconic image, nothing has been written, afaik, that would contradict the existing ranking of the Stormtroopers being separate from the regular Imperial army, similar to how the German army in WWI had the Armeekorps and the elite Stormtroopers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper

12 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

Look, I like to kick Tauntaun Scout around for his fetishes as much as the next guy, but this is simply not true.

The black uniform bucket head troopers are prominent in the Detention block AA-23 skirmish. They are visible in some sort of Marine/Guard capacity on the Star Destroyers in Empire, and are staffing the bunker on Endor. When Han does his deception and the commander sends "three squads to help" about 2/3 of the guys who run out the back door are the same Black Uniform, Wide Helmet, no armor guys we see. Finally for onscreen representation there are a large contingent of these same guys present when Han and Leia are paraded out of the bunker.
They are also present in existing FFG art assets, with a specific example of their presence on the "Boarding Troopers" upgrade card for Armada.

So, maybe back off this one. He's right. These guys would be good. So would Mud Troopers

While the Stormtrooper is the iconic image, nothing has been written, afaik, that would contradict the existing ranking of the Stormtroopers being separate from the regular Imperial army, similar to how the German army in WWI had the Armeekorps and the elite Stormtroopers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper

I'm not talking about the guards in the detention cell, I'm talking about the front line infantry. The old WEG rpg had imperial army troopers as depicted as wearing the helmet and grey jumpsuit we see driving the AT-ST on Endor. These folk are who we are talking about.

as seen above, these troopers have never been seen in the movies apart from standing in a formation when Vader and the Emperor arrive on the Second Death Star, or piloting the AT-ST. In fact, I don't recall seeing pictures of them anywhere except the WEG RPG, never in any game, movie, comic (personal viewing only, they might show up in a comic), etc. until we get a very similar but armoured update with the mudtroopers.

As to the mudtroopers, here is the entry from the databank, on Starwars.com a more official source, you cannot find.

MUDTROOPERS

AFAIK the "Mudtroopers" wear the same style armour as General Veers and the other battlefield officers do, such as Pryce and Thrawn.

It's a helmet and a chest plate and naught else.

The cape and goggles are merely there due to the weather of Mimban.

Considering they are actually front line troops, they are about as weakly armoured as the empire gets... besides over prideful officers refusing to change out of their Naval uniforms.

4 hours ago, Indy_com said:

It's a helmet and a chest plate and naught else.

Plus spaulders, rerebraces and greaves.

21 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

is that not because storm troopers were supposedly (according to WEG) the best of the best?

No. Other troops often had better stats, explaining why stormtroopers can't seem to hit a barn door in the movies. Stormtroopers were the most fanatically loyal and had their own chain of command which ended at the emperor himself. They could not be bribed, seduced, flattered, or intimidated into betraying the emperor. Which was invaluable in the backstabby power-politics of the empire. But assorted pre-WEG sources refer to them using phrasing like "elite shock troops" and WEG was reconciling things to, and working from, that.

I think trying to "explain why they only appear once" is trying to read too much into too few tea leaves. A lot of things only appear once.

I think Navy troops are a better choice but if imperial army troops are going to appear, I don't want the armored mudtroops anytime soon. It's boring to only have the same category of model to work with.

I also don't care if something "doesn't appear in other media". Many things only appear in one other video game or something.

22 hours ago, Tirion said:

Woah religious shade thrown!

My point is, I won't respect canon that changes on a whim for no good reason. Don't fix something that isn't broken. Mudtroopers are fine but there's no reason to throw old army troopers under the bus. The empire is big enough and the films span enough years to have happily accommodated both.

3 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

there's no reason to throw old army troopers under the bus.

saves a lot of money on pensions for veterans

so that is one reason.

On 1/19/2019 at 8:49 AM, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I love how succinctly you insult others and deem what YOU grew up with as being superior.

Look, I get it you havet a SERIOUS fetish for West End Games. Personally, I have always thought the concept of a an unarmoured imperial army trooper, at best, superfluous.

I feel the mudtroopers from Solo are a really good update to the old imperial army trooper, witha decent in universe explanation as to why they exist alongside the standard soldier which is a Stormtrooper.

Now, while we NEVER see the old school imperial army trooper in any capacity as a foot soldier, I DO think there is a place in the game for an unit, which coincides with their ONLY onscreen appearance, that of a vehicle driver. I would be fine seeing these jumpsuit and bucket wearing units as an crew upgrade that allows them to exit a vehicle, say to capture an objective, or something that you can spawn after, say an AT-ST is destroyed.

I think they make more sense as a corps unit considering their appearance onscreen.

On 1/19/2019 at 2:12 PM, BCGaius said:

I'd love to see the dudes from Solo, and they could very well be the thing that finally gets me to bite the bullet and build an Imperial force. I like Stormtroopers, and that new tank looks baller af, but I'd love to do a Veers/Major Gen. Eric (Major Jenn Ehrik? Maj. Gen. Ehr Rik? The possibilities are endless) army built around a core(corps?) of Solotroopers.

Yeah, I might try Empire myself if Mudtroopers were available.

9 hours ago, Indy_com said:

AFAIK the "Mudtroopers" wear the same style armour as General Veers and the other battlefield officers do, such as Pryce and Thrawn.

It's a helmet and a chest plate and naught else.

The cape and goggles are merely there due to the weather of Mimban.

Considering they are actually front line troops, they are about as weakly armoured as the empire gets... besides over prideful officers refusing to change out of their Naval uniforms.

And they're still wearing pretty serious armor. I mean helmet, pauldrons, chest plate. That's about as much armor as Boba Fett wears.

4 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Plus spaulders, rerebraces and greaves.

No. Other troops often had better stats, explaining why stormtroopers can't seem to hit a barn door in the movies. Stormtroopers were the most fanatically loyal and had their own chain of command which ended at the emperor himself. They could not be bribed, seduced, flattered, or intimidated into betraying the emperor. Which was invaluable in the backstabby power-politics of the empire. But assorted pre-WEG sources refer to them using phrasing like "elite shock troops" and WEG was reconciling things to, and working from, that.

I think trying to "explain why they only appear once" is trying to read too much into too few tea leaves. A lot of things only appear once. 

I think Navy troops are a better choice but if imperial army troops are going to appear, I don't want the armored mudtroops anytime soon. It's boring to only have the same category of model to work with.

I also don't care if something "doesn't appear in other media". Many things only appear in one other video game or something.

My point is, I won't respect canon that changes on a whim for no good reason. Don't fix something that isn't broken. Mudtroopers are fine but there's no reason to throw old army troopers under the bus. The empire is big enough and the films span enough years to have happily accommodated both.

Navy troopers would indeed be preferable to weg style army troops. They would offer a different set of stats for a corps unit, which offers more variety to the game and faction.

That being said, my whole point is that the mudtroopers is an update of the weg army trooper, and a good one I believe. When we look at the old weg army and the mud-troopers, they would likely have the exact same stats. Considering scout troopers only have a white defense die, and are likely wearing comparable coverage to the mud trooper.

The old army trooper isn't being thrown under the bus.. they've been upgraded.

Whether you like the new canon or not, whether you feel the changes are necessary or not, you need to realize that these changes happened, and to a **** of a lot more people will be familiar with and recognize the mud troopers over the weg army trooper. Not all gamers grew up or even played weg star wars rpg or previous combat game. ****, I don't remember wotc’s miniature game having the army trooper either.

The old army trooper has become the mud trooper, the storm commando has become the deathtrooper. The role has stayed the same, they just look a little different, with updated visual sensibilities that aren't mired in the 1980’s.

I'll chime in as the guy that would love to see both Mudtroopers and Imperial Fleet/Naval troopers in the game. I'm all for the old canon and views on the Imperial military, but I'll also recognize when Disney's universe improves something. Mudtroopers are the improvement. (and just about the only good thing in Solo ) They take the concept of the old Imperial Army and gives them armor that makes sense. I mean, unarmored troops as front line infantry after the Clone Wars showed armored front line troops for years? It doesn't fit. Semi armored cannon fodder formed from volunteers and planetary security forces? That does fit, though the attitude of the Imperial officer in Solo doesn't fit that background.

2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Navy troopers would indeed be preferable to weg style army troops.

And preferable to anything else I can imagine as likely for Empire right now.

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That being said, my whole point is that the mudtroopers is an update of the weg army trooper,

Except Solo is before ROTJ. That's like saying clone troopers are an update to stormtrooper armor.

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you need to realize that these changes happened,

Why? I used to do that with SW and other IP's. But I find that, the less I keep track of the (current, temporary) annals of pretend history, the happier I usually am. I'd rather use the brain space on something else. Every time I mention that these models existed, people lose it. It's weird. I don't actually think its likely FFG will make them. But I do think unarmored imperial infantry is preferable to yet more armored ones. Though I'll agree that mudtroopers would be greatly preferable to any more stormtrooper variants.

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Not all gamers grew up or even played weg star wars rpg

They prolly saw ROTJ though.

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I don't remember wotc’s miniature game having the army trooper either.

They didn't make one that I know of but that game is hard to keep track of. It's easy to forget things considering the 500 or so minis they produced. They barely made any naval troops, and only a couple imperial pilots were made. Something about cost-averaging for the pre-paints probably really favored storm/lone troopers and their variants.

I think they actually made more tusken raiders, than they did navy troops.

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The role has stayed the same, they just look a little different, with updated visual sensibilities that aren't mired in the 1980’s.

At any rate so far, this game (and the ROTJ army uniform) is set in the GCW era, which is post- Solo. As for being "mired" in the 80's... So far, almost all Legion models are from the 1980's, or from R1 which very closely stuck to an OT aesthetic. Given that, the AT-RT might be the only entirely non-1980's thing in the game right now. This hasn't made it feel "mired in the 80's". By drawing on the visual sources they did, and usually avoiding fashion-based choices, they did a very good job making the OT look timeless.

To break down the mud costume, the visuals are very similar to the older concept, in terms of the helmet, the guns, and a lot of little details that all came from the 70's or 80's. Even the visual style of the breastplate is from ESB. I don't think they are visually incongruous in any way with WEG army troops and frankly if someone sold 25mm metal versions of them, I'd buy a squad or two for my WEG games. I don't have an issue with the actual costume design in and of itself.

But they are too heavily armored to provide the variety I'm seeking in new imperial releases in Legion.

1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

I mean, unarmored troops as front line infantry after the Clone Wars showed armored front line troops for years? It doesn't fit.

The prequels suddenly made a lot of things not fit. This is basically the reason I stopped having any concern for the very notion of a SW canon. The prequels pulled the rug out from under a bunch of the OT, let alone the EU. Unarmored is still the way for imperial navy (despite stormtroopers wearing "armored spacesuits") and for the rebellion, and the army troops shown in in ROTJ. As more movies come out (like Solo), each with its own behind-the-scenes problems and goals, reconciling them into a sensible and absolute set of rules for a gaming universe is going to require increasing amounts of mental gymnastics.

They can't "upgrade" something by showing what it looked like several years in the past. This highly averse reaction everyone has to the old notion of the imperial army is a good example of the disturbing trend to want to memorize the films and use that knowledge as a straight-jacket. I liked it better when they were more of a jumping-off point. Gaming (even heavily-IP based gaming) used to a little more about getting out a notebook and creating something.

If we accept that the empire is the size it's currently purported to be, more man-hours of human history unfold in an imperial year, than in all of Terran human history. Given that, it's statistically very unlikely that there would not be regional and temporal differences in the imperial military machine as relatively minor as WEG army vs. Solo army uniforms. I'm not mad they added the mud uniform, I think the retcon to get rid of the other one is bizarre since there's no good reason both couldn't/wouldn't exist. The films and all other media forms show what would be considered a statistically insignificant sample size of the inhabited SW universe, if we accept it's size according to approved lore. I find it very narrow to think these uniforms need to be retconned and ironed out into a neat and tidy package of trivia questions.

Add mudtroopers, great. Discard army troopers? That's dirty pool. I mean c'mon, these aren't the hoojibs we're talking about. Duloks and Jaxxon are still canon, but a squad of men who appeared in ROTJ running around with a slightly different job than what we saw onscreen, that is a bridge too far? What is happening? Most of the bounty hunters had less screen time than those ROTJ army guys.

Here is the problem.

Weg style imperial army trooper:

Mudtroopers

One is clearly wearing a utility uniform for driving a vehicle, the other is equipped for battle.

It makes sense to have a fleet trooper or imperial navy troooer in light kit.

But an army trooper should look more like a mudtrooper than an at-st driver.

4 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

I'll chime in as the guy that would love to see both Mudtroopers and Imperial Fleet/Naval troopers in the game. I'm all for the old canon and views on the Imperial military, but I'll also recognize when Disney's universe improves something. Mudtroopers are the improvement. (and just about the only good thing in Solo ) They take the concept of the old Imperial Army and gives them armor that makes sense. I mean, unarmored troops as front line infantry after the Clone Wars showed armored front line troops for years? It doesn't fit. Semi armored cannon fodder formed from volunteers and planetary security forces? That does fit, though the attitude of the Imperial officer in Solo doesn't fit that background.

I agree though which officer are you referring to?

1 hour ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

It makes sense to have a fleet trooper or imperial navy troooer in light kit.

But an army trooper should look more like a mudtrooper than an at-st driver.

Historically, yes because wearing heavy gear on a ship can lead to drowning. Space doesn't have that same issue though.

1 hour ago, Kingsguard said:

I agree though which officer are you referring to?

Historically, yes because wearing heavy gear on a ship can lead to drowning. Space doesn't have that same issue though.

7 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

It makes sense to have a fleet trooper or imperial navy troooer in light kit.

But an army trooper should look more like a mudtrooper than an at-st driver.

Why? Before Solo came out no one was scratching their heads over it and screaming that it made no sense. The mudtroopers are fine. "Reconciling" the canon by getting rid of the old stuff is just fixing what isn't broken.

I don't understand the allergic reaction people have to this stuff. It's like they're scared they'll be convicted on charges of Star Wars heresy and sedition.

Years ago, the movies began contradicting each other and are therefore no longer a perfectly accurate map of the SW universe. Why is this so painful for people? It's a space fairy tale. People peer into the films like old-world astrologers trying to divine meanings and purposes that aren't there. Just have some fun with it.

3 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Why? Before Solo came out no one was scratching their heads over it and screaming that it made no sense.

we were all thinking it though/

xept you I guess.