9 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

Whoops, didn’t have the document open to check. In that case , I’m pretty sure it was in the FAQ.

🤨 Which? I just double checked the Official Rules sub thread and the Errata and FAQ sections of the Rules Reference.

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Which? I just double checked the Official Rules sub thread and the Errata and FAQ sections of the Rules Reference.

Page 12:
"When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks."

RAW implies that the jam-er chooses "Lock or Green Token" and the jam-ee chooses which lock or token to remove (if applicable).

2 minutes ago, impspy said:

Page 12:
"When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks."

Doesn't specify that the jammer chooses which green token in the case of multiple green tokens, just that they can choose for it to remove a green token. It needs clarification from FFG. Lets leave this argument in the Rules Discussion area and drop it here.

22 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

You should really work on fixing that, because that's how actual cheaters actually cheat at the game.

Agreed. I listed it first, because it's the most serious flaw for me. I have gotten significantly better about it. (FWIW, I never moved the dials off the table ... the problem was that I'd just forget one existed. I just forgot -- occasionally still do forget -- to flip them until after the fact. When I do it now, I always bring it to my opponent's attention, so he can verify the dial says what I did.)

BTW, while I'm here and talking dials, I want to correct some misinformation that even major podcasts have been spreading: You do not have to get your opponent's "permission" before looking at your own dial. You just have to inform the opponent, so -- if he or she chooses -- he or she can keep a close eye to make sure you're not monkeying with the dial. A requirement to ask your opponent's permission implies that an opponent can deny that permission ... and nobody actually believes an opponent can deny you permission to look at your own dials, right?

18 minutes ago, Maui. said:

I hate to argue about an arcane rules thing in a thread that's not about that, but the question about jam has not been settled yet (at least to my understanding). The rules as written are ambiguous and could be interpreted in favor of either player choosing which specific token is removed.

Agreed, actually. If nobody has actually diagrammed the sentence in question, doing so could be useful. (In fact, it will be useful in determining what the sentence actually says, due to making very clear where the parallel structure of the sentence is. That does not mean it will be useful in settling the matter, because I'd be pretty surprised if the writer of the rule actually fully understands how different parallel structure can and does change what a sentence means. So there will always be the "that's not what they meant" argument.)

I have so done all of these things, used Predator on non-primary attacks, bumped ships all over the board - heck I tried to help hold a ship down even yesterday in a casual game and ended up flinging my shields across the table knocking things everywhere.

But, I will also say that I am super chill if anyone else does that too - it's only little spaceships after all.

8 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Agreed, actually. If nobody has actually diagrammed the sentence in question, doing so could be useful. (In fact, it will be useful in determining what the sentence actually says, due to making very clear where the parallel structure of the sentence is. That does not mean it will be useful in settling the matter, because I'd be pretty surprised if the writer of the rule actually fully understands how different parallel structure can and does change what a sentence means. So there will always be the "that's not what they meant" argument.)

Where the discussion started:

The discussion fizzled but in essence comes down to, as @Maui. stated, how it is worded can be accurately interpreted both ways. I admittedly sit in the camp of the opinion that the ship being jammed gets to select which token is removed in the case of multiple green tokens, or the lock that is removed in the case of multiple maintained locks.

1 hour ago, Blast Tundra said:

Being new to flying X-Wings I repeatedly forget to decide what I'm doing with the foils before revealing my dial!

Ha, now that I think about, I actually do change my s-foils after I've started moving my ship a lot, but with my opponent's permission. With T-65s I don't think it's a problem but if I start playing Poe more I'm gonna have to nip that habit.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Where the discussion started:

The discussion fizzled but in essence comes down to, as @Maui. stated, how it is worded can be accurately interpreted both ways. I admittedly sit in the camp of the opinion that the ship being jammed gets to select which token is removed in the case of multiple green tokens, or the lock that is removed in the case of multiple maintained locks.

That's also the interpretation we follow in our group. None of us are native English speakers though

2 minutes ago, flooze said:

That's also the interpretation we follow in our group. None of us are native English speakers though

I am though.

17 hours ago, bllaw said:

When I bump ships/asteroids a little I alway just say that stuff drifts in space a little so it's ok😂

Lol, I blame it on “Space Winds”

1 hour ago, flooze said:

That's also the interpretation we follow in our group. None of us are native English speakers though

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

I am though.

I am as well and it seems pretty clear to me that the Jam-ee decides the specific token.

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Which? I just double checked the Official Rules sub thread and the Errata and FAQ sections of the Rules Reference.

I could swear I read it spelled out somewhere, but it seems I can’t accurately remember where. Now I’m confused...

6 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

I could swear I read it spelled out somewhere, but it seems I can’t accurately remember where. Now I’m confused...

"...chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks."

Had it been written "chooses to remove a lock or a token" instead of "chooses for the ship," I think the jam-er having the choice would be correct. Otherwise why specify?

On 1/18/2019 at 4:21 PM, impspy said:

I am as well and it seems pretty clear to me that the Jam-ee decides the specific token.

OK, but if a ship with one of each green token receives a jam token, and the jammer chooses to remove the evade token, then the jammer has chosen for the ship to remove one of its green tokens.

EDIT - for the record I do not have an opinion on what is the 'correct' way to resolve jam tokens, I'm just pointing out that the rule is syntactically ambiguous and requires clarification.

I disagree with you on the jam specifics, and so do most judges I know.

To try to drag this back on topic, ask the judge for their rulings on anything ambiguous you plan to use BEFORE the event starts. That way, you aren't cheating by mistake!

15 hours ago, Blast Tundra said:

Being new to flying X-Wings I repeatedly forget to decide what I'm doing with the foils before revealing my dial!

Get some tokens and place them on the dial! The only way for me to remember...

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Get some tokens and place them on the dial! The only way for me to remember...

Not a bad shout, y'know!

Yup, you got me. I’m a horrible cheater...

I cheat on X-Wing, my first miniatures game, with Legion all the time.

Me and my buddy use the "that's your one" rule the first time we mess up while playing. If you keep messing up/forgetting pilot abilities or tokens that's on you.

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 10:36 PM, pheaver said:

I disagree with you on the jam specifics, and so do most judges I know.

To try to drag this back on topic, ask the judge for their rulings on anything ambiguous you plan to use BEFORE the event starts. That way, you aren't cheating by mistake!

It's generally less common for a ship to have a whole slew of green tokens in 2.0 regardless, and most of the time I see it, the jammer is a relatively low initiative reaper or tavson pulling some "you've already discarded your tokens, have one for next turn" rubbish, so it tends to be "a token is sat there for the next time you get one" anyway, at which point there's no question what you're going to lose.

Knocking stuff over or about is pretty common. My first few games of 2nd edition were with a TIE swarm rather than by beloved aileron ships, and I must say the two biggest things I appreciated weren't cost, or the speed 1 turn with no pre-move, or any stuff like that.

It was the fact that (a) the TIE fighter doesn't protrude over it's own base, and (b) there's a flat bit on top of the wings you can balance the dial on, giving you a fighting chance of remembering which ship's dial is which in a scrum.

My biggest crime is forgetting faceup damage cards. So I've been playing the crit token on top of the maneuver dial so I have to look at it pretty much all the time.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It was the fact that (a) the TIE fighter doesn't protrude over it's own base, and (b) there's a flat bit on top of the wings you can balance the dial on, giving you a fighting chance of remembering which ship's dial is which in a scrum.

Just throwing another idea out there...

There's nothing keeping you from some sort of numbering or color-coding on the back of your dials, right?

1 hour ago, kempokid said:

My biggest crime is forgetting faceup damage cards. So I've been playing the crit token on top of the maneuver dial so I have to look at it pretty much all the time.

What do you do when it’s a crit that affects combat instead of maneuvering?

1 hour ago, Matanui3 said:

What do you do when it’s a crit that affects combat instead of maneuvering?

I like the idea a lot, gonna start doing it myself. I feel like if I've picked a crit in the current combat, both of us remember it's effect on subsequent attacks that turn.

If I place the token on the ships dial at that point, I'll be picking it up and thinking about it when the planning stage comes around and can mindfully place it with the set dial.