5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

What are the best reasons for hyperspace? Try as hard and honestly as you can to sell it to me without mentioning any criticism. What are the advantages, which type of player profits? Where are its strong points?

This is a really cool question and thought experiment! Great idea!

• Ease of new players entering the game.
  • New players who may not have availability to find out-of-stock 1E content will be able to be on an even footing with Hyperspace when compared with older players who have many available options of Extended ships to draw from. When I first started and was building my collection, I found that staying competitive was hard with a limited pool of upgrade cards, so I just proxied everything and made friends and borrowed what I needed when actual tournaments happened. With Hyperspace, the limited upgrade and ship pool won't require a huge investment to get what you need.
• Quick method of limiting game-breaking issues
  • While I do not think this should be the primary use of the format, it does allow the developers to cut off problems at the knees. For instance, if something like Dash + Han (crew) + Roark was determined to be an issue, they could suddenly say, "Oh look, Roark has been rotated out of the format" and the problem is quickly removed for the Hyperspace season. Quick and dirty, and doesn't correct the issue for Extended, but does sweep it under the rug for one tournament format potentially removing a game-breaking issue.
• Allows for a fluid competitive metagame by rotating available ships and upgrades
  • With a million monkeys pounding away at the keyboards and pushing ships around the tables, the metagame eventually becomes solved, however by adding new content via new releases and rotating others out via limited format seasons, you keep the format changing and do not rely on every single wave of ships released to be game changers to keep the game from getting stale. You can have a TIE Aggressor release that is received with a resounding, "Eh, its ok," and still be able to change the game up. Sometimes, by limiting the tools you have available, you find a new source of inspiration and creativity as well. For instance, when making pixel art, limiting your color palette challenges artists and causes you to rethink you approach when creating.

16 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Indeed. Not only did it not address every argument, it seemed to actively ignore the fact that there even were other arguments.

What I objected to was that you took the idea that Hyperspace is more accessible to newer players, and drew the conclusion that Hyperspace is only for newer players, who are intended to someday grow beyond Hyperspace, because it's only "introductory". This actively ignores the fact that accessibility is only one reason for Hyperspace, and not even necessarily the primary one.

I did not draw any conclusions. I made the suggestion that perhaps Hyperspace would be better served as an introductory format. Perhaps the idea of an introductory format is better served by seperating it from the meta tangle issues that hyperspace is also (supposedly) supposed to address.

16 hours ago, Wiredin said:

Would the outcry be any different if there was no conversions to begin with?

Oh yea. That dumpster fire is still smoldering i forgot.

In hindsight, FFG locked themselves into a lot of stuff with the conversion kits. That was a lot of stuff to change and rebalance all at once. I can see the argument that if they hadn't released conversion kits, a lot of 1.0 players would have bailed, but it's also a missed opportunity to modulate the game with incremental releases instead of *BAM!* all at once.

I am amused to see that I'm considered a hyperspace hallelujah advocate considering I dont think I'm going to play it at all? It's mostly that I get annoyed when I see bad arguments like "we were lied to" when there is demonstrable proof that we were warned. Or the famous "I cant play with my old 1.0 in 2.0" sure you can. Play extended. Like I do.

And when I see those bad arguments I try to correct them. And that never goes well on the internet.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

There's people who would change to liking hyperspace if the ship pool size was roughly twice as big (eg, Rebels also had A/B/E-Wings and the Z-95). Sure, that's cool.

There's people who would change to liking hyperspace if and only if whatever one random ship they care about exclusively was included. For some given random person, it could be Gunboats, for another Jumpmasters, for another K-Wings. These people have sealed their own fates to dissatisfaction by wanting such an extremely specific version of the game to exist that the total set of all of them can never all be simultaneously satisfied - but otherwise, sure, that's cool.

There's a super-set of people, who could belong to any other group, but - like how I prefer hyperspace, but still enjoy playing extended if that's the event - prefer playing extended, but still enjoy playing hyperspace if that's the event. Obviously, sure, that's cool.

Then there's another group of people, whose views I can't empathetically describe because I've muted them all, and I continue to exist in a state of mild surprise when other people haven't muted them too.

Personally, I envisioned alternate formats as more themed things. Like, with objectives and list requirements that fit objectives. (Bring these lists from Return of the Jedi, the missions are to attack/defend the Death Star II)

This whole "balancing the game" angle is... not wise IMO.

13 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

I am amused to see that I'm considered a hyperspace hallelujah advocate considering I dont think I'm going to play it at all? It's mostly that I get annoyed when I see bad arguments like "we were lied to" when there is demonstrable proof that we were warned. Or the famous "I cant play with my old 1.0 in 2.0" sure you can. Play extended. Like I do. 

And when I see those bad arguments I try to correct them. And that never goes well on the internet.

Yes you even mentioned something along these lines in that previous thread. I'm not sure who else is a hyperspace hallelujah advocate besides myself. But I get where you come from.

24 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

I am amused to see that I'm considered a hyperspace hallelujah advocate considering I dont think I'm going to play it at all? It's mostly that I get annoyed when I see bad arguments like "we were lied to" when there is demonstrable proof that we were warned. Or the famous "I cant play with my old 1.0 in 2.0" sure you can. Play extended. Like I do.

And when I see those bad arguments I try to correct them. And that never goes well on the internet.

That's pretty much the position I find myself in. There are plenty of reasonable arguments to be made on both sides, so why resort to the irrational?

35 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Or the famous "I cant play with my old 1.0 in 2.0" sure you can. Play extended. Like I do.

And when I see those bad arguments I try to correct them. And that never goes well on the internet.

See, I don’t see that as an inherently bad argument. In your local area, it very well could be a bad argument. In other areas, it could be very valid.

When I pointed out the distance required to participate in an extended format event for myself, for example, one forum poster said “boohoo you can still play extended over there so make it work, no sympathy here”.

Goes back to my more calm post, where I’m not so much against the format as I am against the natural progression that is trending because of the try hard crowd. The tournament folks know the next local event is Hyperspace, so they start demanding FLGS weekly events adapt to that format so they can practice for the big event.

I don’t mind events being one format or the other - I just want the option to play extended without having to plan a system open run.

17 hours ago, LagJanson said:

I disagree!

Also, why is AstroTurf always green? It’s artificial anyway so why not other colours? Blue? Red? How about watching a baseball game on pink AstroTurf? I demand more colours!

More colors? Ok...Boise State's football field is blue with orange endzones.

2 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Goes back to my more calm post, where I’m not so much against the format as I am against the natural progression that is trending because of the try hard crowd. The tournament folks know the next local event is Hyperspace, so they start demanding FLGS weekly events adapt to that format so they can practice for the big event.

Yeah, I just found out that my FLGS is hosting a Hyperspace Trial and other than the League decision to run Extended through January, after that's done and the points come out at the end of the month, knowing the locals I expect that from Feb. to May probably ... rough guess... 90% of the games at the FLGS will be Hyperspace as everyone starts to get into prepping. There are a one or two guys that liked changing things up (like scenarios, epic, quick builds, run jank squads, etc.), but almost everyone else will get into competitive mode for that upcoming tournament.

So yeah, I just don't get to do whatever I want to. I get to play what's being played that night I can show up.

11 hours ago, Marinealver said:

yup already escalated

Well, since I've been accused of escalating

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

At the same time I ask those constantly defending hyperspace (note: not attacking extended!) like myself, @JJ48 , @Dabirdisdaword , @LagJanson or whoever else keeps doing that:

Where are the problems of hyperspace without mentioning positives? What are disadvantages, which type of player loses out, what are pitfalls and possible concerns? Where are its weaknesses?

I'll answer even though I've not been called out here.

The biggest problem with Hyperspace is the feeling that people bought conversion kits for nothing. They expected to play the entirety of the XWM experience with the kits, and now they feel like they've been taken for a ride because 1/2 of play is not eligible.

My concern it that Hyperspace will become the focus of design, and Extended will be treat as Epic has--it's "supported," whatever that means.

My final concern would be that with 2 main formats needing attention, there will never be room/man-hours left for something beyond various forms of 400/6.

10 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Because that's just how the Internet works. If people start being reasonable, then the entire system shuts down, which means global communication ceases to exist.

Yeah, there are days then I think it would be better for humanity to all go back to corded wall phones.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, there are days then I think it would be better for humanity to all go back to corded wall phones.

Wasn't much better then. Chief difference is there is now a very public record of what has been "said" and that can come back and bite someone allot quicker.

12 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Wasn't much better then. Chief difference is there is now a very public record of what has been "said" and that can come back and bite someone allot quicker.

I'm pretty sure Benjamin Franklin's newspaper consisted mostly of posts complaining about what idiots Tories were, and how any sane person would be a Patriot; as well as the occasional question about when the next state was going to be released (and one Canadian asking about the next province before apologizing and explaining he must have contacted the wrong periodical).

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

My concern it that Hyperspace will become the focus of design, and Extended will be treat as Epic has--it's "supported," whatever that means.

Related to this, but until I see the points chart release on the 28th, I’m concerned they’ll only re-point based on what’s needed to balance Hyperspace, leaving extended as-is for anything that doesn’t overlap into Hyperspace but could really use rebalancing. No, I don’t have any specific reason to suggest this will happen. But I also have no reason to think it won’t happen.

19 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Related to this, but until I see the points chart release on the 28th, (a) I’m concerned they’ll only re-point based on what’s needed to balance Hyperspace , leaving extended as-is for anything that doesn’t overlap into Hyperspace but could really use rebalancing. (b) No, I don’t have any specific reason to suggest this will happen . But I also have no reason to think it won’t happen.

(a) does not require (b) to be valid, merely the existence of the possibility that what you're concerned about will happen . The up coming points changes are going to be a very important demonstration of how FFG is going to be implementing their plans. Concerns are reasonable.

3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

See, I don’t see that as an inherently bad argument. In your local area, it very well could be a bad argument. In other areas, it could be very valid.

When I pointed out the distance required to participate in an extended format event for myself, for example, one forum poster said “boohoo you can still play extended over there so make it work, no sympathy here”.

Goes back to my more calm post, where I’m not so much against the format as I am against the natural progression that is trending because of the try hard crowd. The tournament folks know the next local event is Hyperspace, so they start demanding FLGS weekly events adapt to that format so they can practice for the big event.

I don’t mind events being one format or the other - I just want the option to play extended without having to plan a system open run.

I uh. I think I was the one who boohoo'd you cause it's so remote here compared to anywhere in america distance wise, and finding extended games still doesnt seem to be an issue for me.

5 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

I uh. I think I was the one who boohoo'd you cause it's so remote here compared to anywhere in america distance wise, and finding extended games still doesnt seem to be an issue for me.

Define remote. My LGS is over an hour away...

48 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Define remote. My LGS is over an hour away...

Nearest is 45 min next closest from there is about 4 hrs.

Just now, Dabirdisdaword said:

Nearest is 45 min next closest from there is about 4 hrs.

SO about the same boat I'm in

9 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Nearest is 45 min next closest from there is about 4 hrs.

Ah. See, when I said something about crossing three state lines to get to an extended event, that’s more like 6.5 hours. Adepticon is about that far for me.

There is certainly closer, and more options that you have for sure, but they’ve all gone Hyperspace “for the reps”. And that was what I was getting at - my choice was becoming Hyperspace at store 1 or Hyperspace at store 2.

38 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Ah. See, when I said something about crossing three state lines to get to an extended event, that’s more like 6.5 hours. Adepticon is about that far for me.

There is certainly closer, and more options that you have for sure, but they’ve all gone Hyperspace “for the reps”. And that was what I was getting at - my choice was becoming Hyperspace at store 1 or Hyperspace at store 2.

Yep I think I was running on an incorrect assumption about events and was going on about like regional level events which can be 2 days drive straight. But it does suck if you cant organize an extended game anywhere locally.

15 hours ago, Kieransi said:

a series of kid's movies after all.

kids movies? Wait, wut?!

4 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

kids movies? Wait, wut?!

At least George Lucas said so. Not that his opinion matters.

23 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Ah and in the other thread I thought it was about the actual hyperspace OP events vs extended. Cause last year we had one event near enough to attend and the next closest was a 2day non stop drive 3 provinces over.

Ah, yeah I don’t really care so much about all the OP events. If there’s a close one that interests me I may give it a shot. I’m perfectly happy with my casual gaming at FLGS (or even at home) if I can get a game in. I just don’t like Hyperspace because the players turned LGS into Hyperspace practice, not because I hate the format or think it’s bad.

That said, I did make the trek to Adepticon last year and had a blast. So I plan to do it some future year when the funds and time allow for the travel. Just not in the cards for this year.

On 1/17/2019 at 8:53 PM, Darth Meanie said:

OMG I LOOKED THIS UP ON THE INTERWEBS AND I HAVE ALL THE SYMPTOMS!!!!

I NEED A PILL!!! PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME THERE IS A PILL FOR THAT!!!!!!

The pills are not on the open market yet, but tests on mice and one mentally disabled janitor seem promising.