7 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

People will falsly claim this format is better for new players and better for balance. They are wrong and suffer from cognitive dissonance.

OMG I LOOKED THIS UP ON THE INTERWEBS AND I HAVE ALL THE SYMPTOMS!!!!

I NEED A PILL!!! PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME THERE IS A PILL FOR THAT!!!!!!

Many consider hyperspace format to be the boldest and biggest risk FFG has taken with X-wing. On one hand, FFG makes entry into the game easier for new players. (It was so easy for me to get into this game at wave 8. I can't imagine the difficulty new players have now) Also, they can guarantee sales of their new ships because 50% of hyperspace is the new stuff. This is fair because we have a free app now. The only downside is that the game of x-wing faces its first real existential risk. There's a chance FFG screws up and the game is mortally wounded by the end of the year, but they wouldn't do that, so I think we're safe. X-wing is the only competitive game I've ever been involved with, so I wouldn't know for sure, but it seems difficult to kill a game. Probably it has very rarely happened with other games.

5 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Wow this thread has potential. Lol.

I personally like Hyperspace because I think it's a lot easier moving forward to balance a smaller pool competitively.

Casually do what you want anyway, nobody's forcing you to go to tournaments. This way new people don't feel like they have to go track down 1.0 stuff and conversions on eBay just to play the game.

FFG sold 2.0 as the way to "rebalance" X-Wing. They sold it as the way to make all your 1.0 ships viable again, as well as the way to use ships issued with 2.0.

Therefore, by FFG's original logic, those po' lil' noobs would be able to play just with 2.0 ships, without having to chase down OOP 1.0 ships, and still compete.

This was in SEPTEMBER. It's FOUR MONTHS LATER, and now we're being told, "Suckers! Gotta cut out 90% of your collection because this game really ISN'T balanced, and those po' lil' noobs really can't play 2.0 ships competitively." This is what aggravates.

To noobs who supposedly can't handle all those 1.0 ships and their various upgrades: play more! Learn the game. Fly those "balanced" 2.0 ships effectively. Figure out how to use them against the older ships. (It takes time. I've been playing for about 4 years, have played in a fair number of lower-level tournaments, and am still by no means a tournament ace, or even a 2.0 expert.) If you can't do that, why are you playing high-level tournaments?

And why is FFG trying to get them to do so? We all know the answer to that question. It's just that some parts of the community, rather than advocating for players, seem to have chosen to white-knight for FFG. Which never ceases to amaze.

25 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

It's just that some parts of the community, rather than advocating for players, seem to have chosen to white-knight for FFG. Which never ceases to amaze.

Translation: "Some people have a different viewpoint than I do, so I will assume some ulterior motive rather than believe that anyone could genuinely like the idea."

I've seen several veterans who like the idea of Hyperspace, so doesn't that mean that the haters aren't really "advocating for players" either?

4 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I just want to jump on this little statement here, because yes, limiting the number of ships per faction will absolutely increase diversity.

I guarantee you that every Extended tournament for at least the next few years (and quite possibly forever) will not be very diverse affairs, and will be dominated by the original three factions. Resistance, First Order, Republic and Separatists will be footnotes at best, simply because they will not have the options to adjust to however the meta shifts.

Hyperspace will bring all seven factions back to a more-or-less level playing field, allowing more factions to see competitive success. It won't be perfect, of course (no game with multiple factions ever is), but it will lead to a more even split amongst all seven factions than we'll likely ever get in Extended.

and back to the hyperspace wars. The Hyperspaceistance vs the Extended Order!

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

OMG I LOOKED THIS UP ON THE INTERWEBS AND I HAVE ALL THE SYMPTOMS!!!!

I NEED A PILL!!! PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME THERE IS A PILL FOR THAT!!!!!!

yup already escalated

I feel like this conversation gets way more intense than it needs to. I'm an older player and I find limited events sort of fun, it's a neat challenge to build with a smaller card pool. I went to the Battle of Yavin event recently. IDK. I just think that most of us talking here own all the ships anyway so I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. There was stuff I liked flying in 1.0 that I'll never get to fly again too, such is life. Hyperspace makes sense to me because all the factions have equal numbers of options available. If it doesn't make sense to you, that's fine, but I don't see why anyone here needs to be attacking or defending FFG or each other, or being or calling anyone a "white knight" or whatever. It's just a silly pew-pew game of plastic spaceship toys based on a series of kid's movies after all.

3 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I don't see why anyone here needs to be attacking or defending FFG or each other, or being or calling anyone a "white knight" or whatever.

Because that's just how the Internet works. If people start being reasonable, then the entire system shuts down, which means global communication ceases to exist.

3 hours ago, Marinealver said:

and back to the hyperspace wars. The Hyperspaceistance vs the Extended Order!

Grab some popcorn!

See the same profile pics, same arguments, same team-likes, but Moaaaarrrr hyperbole

Let's try something new for a change.

I'm asking @Managarmr , @Eisai , @Firebird TMK , @Dengar5 , @Koing907 , @ScummyRebel , @Schu81 and whoever else passionately dislikes and keeps arguing vehemently against Hyperspace whenever it is mentioned:

What are the best reasons for hyperspace? Try as hard and honestly as you can to sell it to me without mentioning any criticism. What are the advantages, which type of player profits? Where are its strong points?

At the same time I ask those constantly defending hyperspace (note: not attacking extended!) like myself, @JJ48 , @Dabirdisdaword , @LagJanson or whoever else keeps doing that:

Where are the problems of hyperspace without mentioning positives? What are disadvantages, which type of player loses out, what are pitfalls and possible concerns? Where are its weaknesses?

I'll simply ignore your answer if you don't manage to stick to the rules (no criticism/no positives).

Okay, I'll play by the rules and I am even going to call Hyperspace mode by it's real name instead of ... ah just look at any other post of me talking about hyperspace

The most important advantage of Hyperspace Mode is its balancing.

It's not easy to keep all ships and upgrades of 5 (7) fractions on the same level. By making just certain ships and upgrades "hyperspace legal", you'll be able to calculate the power level of all the combinations of ships and upgrade cards.

So, this mode is probably very good for people who care less about squad building and more about the flying aspect of the game. In hyperspace you won't be able to beat your opponent on the drawing board, before the match has even started. Hyperspace is good for new players, who have no fleets yet. They can be competitive much more quickly with just a few ships, without having to think about the hundreds of hardcorde combinations a veteran of XWing will proboably be able to come up with.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Let's try something new for a change.

I'm asking @Managarmr , @Eisai , @Firebird TMK , @Dengar5 , @Koing907 , @ScummyRebel , @Schu81 and whoever else passionately dislikes and keeps arguing vehemently against Hyperspace whenever it is mentioned:

What are the best reasons for hyperspace? Try as hard and honestly as you can to sell it to me without mentioning any criticism. What are the advantages, which type of player profits? Where are its strong points?

The biggest one I have seen would be if someone is new to xwing (or miniatures) in general has an easier time figuring out what things to buy (whether that be a faction, a couple of them, etc). The reduced eligible ships means focusing on picking up new stock is easier.

I’ve actually made this observation over on Fb’s “xwing rules questions” page where someone asked as a new player what to buy - I advised that with more places adopting Hyperspace to start with that which is legal for their events (giving them the rough guideline of the all black 2.0 packaging = good to go, though best to check with PDFs). It’s cheaper for them that way too.

Challenge taken Although I am not passionately disliking and are not vehemently against Hyperspace! I am more towards neutral, just quite astonished about FFG's ship selection. I see some of the problems (but also the Extended problems!), and mostly made reservations for circumstances, like "if FFG", "if my local club", "if players". If I came over as aggressive, I have to excuse.

I try to answer earnest, hopefully some Hyperspace Halleluja adherents actually write about the problems.

As Hyperspace looks now, according to the latest article (FFG seems unable to not announce unclear PR spin, we still not have a definite answer)

-less cards and dials to remember for the players (esp. good for beginners) at a given point in time

-less interactions (esp good for beginners. But also for the rest, you can easily hop into games, without first tryng to wrap your head around rules distributed over x ships and upgrades, and how that interacts with first player and flowcharts)

-less broken interactions (so far)(although Tavson and other stuff (MGT) seems FFG again made mistakes with rules. That's however not what we want to discuss here!)

-for the hardcore tournament adherents more easy to predict what you probably will meet

-maybe that flying skill matters more than list combo skill - now we enter hot mined area here with that argument

-Seasonwise shake up. Forcing the breakup of overdominant squads emerging and ruling supreme extended periods (if this is due to them being cheap (few models to buy) or inherently OP (undercosted and or broken) or Echo-chamber effect of pods/forums/blogs, plays no role here) instead of waiting for new products, FAQ or some really good answer emerging

-more incentive to switch factions instead of being glued to one faction all the time- e.g. wanna bomb? Go resistance now (more profite for FFG, see even last argument)

-switching factions can be an eye opener, flying things yourself shows weaknesses, and opens ways to overcome things you might see as nemesis or game breakers

-FFG is a business. They need to sell ships. And as much as I dislike that beloved ships disappear (and I like to fly balanced theme ships, I refuse to fly the broken crap), I much rather see FFG selling new ships due to new balanced(!) ships coming, scenarios (still hoping (probably fruitless) for something like e.g Scarif season), paint schemes, different pilots, than FFG selling them due to powercreep (JM5K, Palp, late 1.0 Defenders anyone?). If FFG doesn't sell ships, the game dies, try to find players then (I have some350 Man o War ships....)

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

At the same time I ask those constantly defending hyperspace (note: not attacking extended!) like myself, @JJ48 , @Dabirdisdaword , @LagJanson or whoever else keeps doing that:

Where are the problems of hyperspace without mentioning positives? What are disadvantages, which type of player loses out, what are pitfalls and possible concerns? Where are its weaknesses?

Good exercise, but also interesting I got tagged here. While I prefer Hyperspace, I've already run an Extended tournament at our local store, so I can't say I'm really against either. I like to change up tournaments to prevent boredom and having different formats does that without me trying to invent something.

So, problem with hyperspace, eh? Think the biggest one is obviously "My favourite ship is not legal in the format." This has occurred in other odd unofficial formats, such as Battle of Yavin, or the Original Trilogy tournaments that started popping up near the end of 1.0. There were players who refused to participate because their choices didn't include their preferred ship.

As to concerns with Hyperspace, well, think we mentioned on another thread that we don't want to see core ships rotated out. X-Wings, TIE Fighters... these are included in the core box, and are central to Star Wars, so we hope that these will remain. It hasn't been spelled out yet. Availability of hyperspace legal ships during the season is also a concern of mine... Asmodee Canada tends to have distribution issues, for a multitude of legitimate reasons, I'm sure. The end result is stuff gets sold out and stores go months without getting product.

1 hour ago, Managarmr said:

Challenge taken Although I am not passionately disliking and are not vehemently against Hyperspace!

Agreed - I don’t think I’m against Hyperspace so much as I am against its evangelists that want to make it the end all, be all, one format to rule them all. (And I’m not saying all pro-Hyperspace players are this). The known names in my area are all trying to guide store level events towards Hyperspace because “got to practice for regionals!!!”

Thank you guys very much, these are fascinating and great points! I will give it a shot myself:

The addition of Hyperspace has several problems.

1) Communication: the announcement and information by FFG suffered from their typical PR-speak.
The main information is coming through their articles that are prominently featured and widely shared. Spreading information about the format through panels at game conventions, relying on community figures to make it widely known, and relying on the community to a very large degree is bad practice. It demonstrates a lack of loyalty to your previous customers when the alternative would be to simply communicate more transparently and frequently.

2) Divisiveness (Events): the addition of a second format brings many possible downsides and is an unnecessary risk.
We all know the phenomenon of season fatigue, when players just want a break from organized play after going through an intense season of store champs/regional/national. The addition of a second format has one of two complimentary consequences: Either people play both formats and run earlier into this fatigue (or it gets stronger if it's later). Or players focus on one format instead of both, and this will reduce the player pool for the two formats. And of course an option is that there will be fewer events per format. That will hurt those who - for whatever reason - focus on just one.
And last points about events: relying on stores and local communities to organize the events that are popular has a large inherent risk. It requires people to get out, organize, seek friction with others to eek out a distribution that is ok for all groups involved. Chances are that few people dominate local communities and those who disagree are effectively pushed out.

3) Divisiveness (Players): some players will play just one format. Whether they should or not - it will happen.
And there are several good reasons why they want to. One is, they are new and have only hyperspace stuff. Maybe they can't get the extended parts, maybe they don't want to invest the time and money. Either way, they will be able to compete in extended, but they don't actually compete. Another reason is for people who just dislike the options available for hyperspace. This will be a recurring problem with rotations. Eventually your favorite ship will be rotated out and you can't play it anymore. At that point you are forced to play something new, even if it was your most favorite squad ever. Of course you can say that they can still play it in extended, but chances are high that this squad was competitive in hyperspace but won't be in extended. So effectively you can't play it anymore if you also want to have an actual shot at winning a game or event.
FFG introduced seasons for the rotations. But timing these seasons appropriately will be difficult as was the case with previous metas in 1.0. E.g. the wave 2 is super cool but will just last another month or so. I did not have the chance to put everything on the table, and there are not enough events now to really test it for a day.

8 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Good exercise, but also interesting I got tagged here.

I wasn't sure who else kept defending hyperspace. Of course it is much less memorable to me than those who keep complaining

Sorry to everyone I tagged who feels he shouldn't be. I was going by memory+this thread.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I wasn't sure who else kept defending hyperspace. Of course it is much less memorable to me than those who keep complaining

Sorry to everyone I tagged who feels he shouldn't be. I was going by memory+this thread.

Nah, it's a fair exercise. It's nice to complain about something for a change.

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

Nah, it's a fair exercise. It's nice to complain about something for a change.

Haha yes. I'm burning to say why my own points are less important than other points, or what the positive other side of the same coin is. I can only guess that others feel the same.

But, like them, I also won't as per my own rules.

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I wasn't sure who else kept defending hyperspace. Of course it is much less memorable to me than those who keep complaining

Sorry to everyone I tagged who feels he shouldn't be. I was going by memory+this thread.

Nah, I earned my call out. It’s all good. I should be more careful to clarify my objection isn’t directly with the idea of the format, rather the implementation that results because of the “get in the reps” crowd.

There's people who would change to liking hyperspace if the ship pool size was roughly twice as big (eg, Rebels also had A/B/E-Wings and the Z-95). Sure, that's cool.

There's people who would change to liking hyperspace if and only if whatever one random ship they care about exclusively was included. For some given random person, it could be Gunboats, for another Jumpmasters, for another K-Wings. These people have sealed their own fates to dissatisfaction by wanting such an extremely specific version of the game to exist that the total set of all of them can never all be simultaneously satisfied - but otherwise, sure, that's cool.

There's a super-set of people, who could belong to any other group, but - like how I prefer hyperspace, but still enjoy playing extended if that's the event - prefer playing extended, but still enjoy playing hyperspace if that's the event. Obviously, sure, that's cool.

Then there's another group of people, whose views I can't empathetically describe because I've muted them all, and I continue to exist in a state of mild surprise when other people haven't muted them too.

10 hours ago, Firebird TMK said:

FFG sold 2.0 as the way to "rebalance" X-Wing. They sold it as the way to make all your 1.0 ships viable again, as well as the way to use ships issued with 2.0.

there was nothing saying they were going to make all the 1.0 ships viable. in fact they just said there will be conversion kits allowing you to use your 1.0 ships. Which they did accomplish.

They also said there will be alternative game modes that will have restricted lists of pilots/upgrades/ships to use in competitive or normal game modes. Which they did accomplish.

They also said there would be quick build event available for a different flavor of x-wing to be played. Also accomplished and quick build cards are included as swag in the quarterly kits.

They also mentioned they would be doing points re-balancing. Which is happening on the 28th, so accomplished.

54 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Nah, it's a fair exercise. It's nice to complain about something for a change.

As Joe Walsh sang, "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do."

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

At the same time I ask those constantly defending hyperspace (note: not attacking extended!) like myself, @JJ48 , @Dabirdisdaword , @LagJanson or whoever else keeps doing that:

Where are the problems of hyperspace without mentioning positives? What are disadvantages, which type of player loses out, what are pitfalls and possible concerns? Where are its weaknesses?

Never attending or intending to attend organized play, I don't particularly care about formats; I just got involved because debates are interesting, and some of the arguments antis were making were irritating. But, we'll try this anyway.

<Ahem!>

People of the Galaxy! You have all heard of this new Hyperspace Treaty, and how it will balance our warfare and aid in bringing raw recruits up to Imperial standards. But these benefits come at great cost: the sacrifice of many of our military options. We are not some rag-tag bunch of misfits, throwing together whatever ships we can scrounge up; we are the Galactic Empire, with each ship specially crafted for a specific role! Why should we hamper ourselves by throwing away the bulk of our armory while our opponents still get to employ jack-of-all-trades vessels? Furthermore, most of the options we would have are not even hyperspace-capable, which severely limits our ability to hunt down terrorists to their hidden Rebel bases, and is also utterly unacceptable in a format called Hyperspace.

<start tape of "Battle Hymn of the Empire">

As the rulers of the galaxy, it is our responsibility to reject these terms utterly, and ensure that our men-at-arms have the tools they need to maintain order. If we allow them to take our Gunboats and Phantoms now, what's next? Will we lose our Reapers and Strikers next? Will they then come for our capital ships? Our Death Stars? Which of you wants to live in a galaxy where a man can't serve on any Star Destroyer his superiors choose?

<Music swells to a grand crescendo>

Now, brethren, I bid you stand with me shoulder-to-shoulder; that together we may oppose the tyranny and injustice of FFG's Hyperspace format, and instead usher in the tyranny and injustice of our beloved Emperor! Let us go forth, and strike peace and fear into the heart of the galaxy, so that nevermore will any senior officer ever walk into a hanger and have to say, "Dude, where's my Lambda ?"

<Triumphal finale>

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Let's try something new for a change.

I'm asking @Managarmr , @Eisai , @Firebird TMK , @Dengar5 , @Koing907 , @ScummyRebel , @Schu81 and whoever else passionately dislikes and keeps arguing vehemently against Hyperspace whenever it is mentioned:

What are the best reasons for hyperspace? Try as hard and honestly as you can to sell it to me without mentioning any criticism. What are the advantages, which type of player profits? Where are its strong points?

At the same time I ask those constantly defending hyperspace (note: not attacking extended!) like myself, @JJ48 , @Dabirdisdaword , @LagJanson or whoever else keeps doing that:

Where are the problems of hyperspace without mentioning positives? What are disadvantages, which type of player loses out, what are pitfalls and possible concerns? Where are its weaknesses?

I'll simply ignore your answer if you don't manage to stick to the rules (no criticism/no positives).

So the big disadvantage I see is that it could very quickly settle into "this is the single best list" and there may be a faction that simply doesnt have a response to the top combi due to reduced options available.

The players I can see losing out are ones like my buddy mark who is scum for life but isnt found of the current lineup and myself. I'm a gunboat fanatic and am not inspired by current empire options. Im debating wether I should go republic or just skip the hyperspace and stick to extended. Possible concern is split playerbase (see above). Not seeing any weaknesses in the format itself (yet) but we need to see if an single oppressive combo pops up.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Let's try something new for a change.

I'm asking @Managarmr , @Eisai , @Firebird TMK , @Dengar5 , @Koing907 , @ScummyRebel , @Schu81 and whoever else passionately dislikes and keeps arguing vehemently against Hyperspace whenever it is mentioned:

What are the best reasons for hyperspace? Try as hard and honestly as you can to sell it to me without mentioning any criticism. What are the advantages, which type of player profits? Where are its strong points?

I wouldn't say I'm vehemently or passionately against it, though I am not a fan (for some fairly specific reasons, which I won't go into in this post, so as to not criticize). There are certain arguments that keep getting made in favor of it that I believe are flawed, and those are the ones I argue against.

That said, the best reasons for Hyperspace, in my opinion, without criticism (which I could add to these points):

1) Theoretically easier to balance a smaller pool.

2) Strictly speaking, more about in-game decisions (if everyone is playing the same thing, in-game player skill matters).

3) Related to 2), ease of list-building.

I kept trying to add a couple of more points, but couldn't without adding asterisks or outright criticism within them, because I'd think about it and immediately not agree with what I was writing.