May I check opponent's deck list WHILE playing Archon format or JUST BEFORE the match?
Is it an open information during the whole game so i can play with his identity card beneath my eyes?
Please clarify me this, because on the tournament rules it is said that you can check opponent list 2 min before the match. And after? Instead on the Crucible Cast Op n°1 he said that it is an open info. So i was wondering this.
Hello Palter94,
Per the KF Tournament Regulations, page 4:
"Each KeyForge deck has an identity card that displays the deck’s name along with a list of all the cards within that deck. Each player’s identity card must be visible and accessible at all times. In the Archon format, players are only able to review their opponent’s list prior to the match (standard 2 minute time limit). In the Sealed format, players are not allowed to review their opponent’s list. Each player must present his or her deck’s identity card in order to register for a KeyForge tournament. If a player cannot present the identity card, then the associated deck is not valid and cannot be used in that tournament."
I interpret this to mean that you can only review it prior to the match during an Archon format. After that, the house card "must be visible and accessible at all times."
Edited by ForgewurmI still don't understand. What do you mean for "After that"?
So may I see it while playing the match or not (just prior the match)?
You said ONLY and then you used "after that it is accessible at all times". I don't understand this.
Edited by Palter946 minutes ago, Palter94 said:I still don't understand. What do you mean for "After that"?
So may I see it while playing the match or not (just prior the match)?
Only before, not during the match (meaning the deck list side of it).
The three-house side of the card has to remain in play and visible during the match.
Edited by CaptainIxidorIt is exactly the opposite of what it has been said in the video where it is clear that list is accessible entirely.
I interpret this to mean that you have the opportunity to see and check opponent list for a maximum of 2 min prior the match and, furthermore, during the entire match. The "2 minutes" is just a formality rule for me and not a constraint.
In every card game I've ever played whenever you got an information it is always an assumption and taken for granted that you already now that info during the whole match. I don't think that in this game things changes behaviour.
Edited by Palter94Forgewurm spells it out clearly.
Per the KF Tournament Regulations, page 4:
"Each KeyForge deck has an identity card that displays the deck’s name along with a list of all the cards within that deck. Each player’s identity card must be visible and accessible at all times. In the Archon format, players are only able to review their opponent’s list prior to the match (standard 2 minute time limit). In the Sealed format, players are not allowed to review their opponent’s list. Each player must present his or her deck’s identity card in order to register for a KeyForge tournament. If a player cannot present the identity card, then the associated deck is not valid and cannot be used in that tournament."
I'm pretty sure we don't need to define ONLY.
18 minutes ago, Krashwire said:Forgewurm spells it out clearly.
Per the KF Tournament Regulations, page 4:
"Each KeyForge deck has an identity card that displays the deck’s name along with a list of all the cards within that deck. Each player’s identity card must be visible and accessible at all times. In the Archon format, players are only able to review their opponent’s list prior to the match (standard 2 minute time limit). In the Sealed format, players are not allowed to review their opponent’s list. Each player must present his or her deck’s identity card in order to register for a KeyForge tournament. If a player cannot present the identity card, then the associated deck is not valid and cannot be used in that tournament."
I'm pretty sure we don't need to define ONLY.
I am sure we don't need to define "Accessible at ALL TIMES". I'm still not sure of your answers. Why don't you all go to watch the youtube video of Crucible Cast Ep. 1? "The deck list is already been discovered. It's out there" Cit. Alex Watkins (Global Marketing Manager talking with Game Designer Brad Andres)
Edited by Palter94So, let me get this straight. You come into a Keyforge forum and ask a question. Then when multiple people give you the answer you respond with “I’m still not sure of your answers. Why don’t you all go watch X video”
This is....quite another level ^^
Just now, Palpster said:So, let me get this straight. You come into a Keyforge forum and ask a question. Then when multiple people give you the answer you respond with “I’m still not sure of your answers. Why don’t you all go watch X video”
This is....quite another level ^^
ahahah it's because i am sure that many people did not watch that video. By the way the answer is indeed not clear also because the " review " word in the rule could mean to check the opponent list to fit the rule of the same lower-right deck list name on every card.
So...
To clarify, since this is somehow confusing... you're allowed to look at the list BEFORE the game starts for up to 2 minutes. After that, the Archon card is placed list face down in the play area so that you can only see the deck name and the three houses. After that initial 2 minutes, you're not allowed to look at the list again.
If a player stops to look up the deck in the Master Vault to review the list mid-game, I'd say that they're in violation of the tournament rules and a TO/judge should get involved.
Things in videos really need to be clarified later in text. I'd follow the tourney regulation PDF before something said in a YT video.
2 hours ago, KrisWall said:So...
To clarify, since this is somehow confusing... you're allowed to look at the list BEFORE the game starts for up to 2 minutes. After that, the Archon card is placed list face down in the play area so that you can only see the deck name and the three houses. After that initial 2 minutes, you're not allowed to look at the list again.
If a player stops to look up the deck in the Master Vault to review the list mid-game, I'd say that they're in violation of the tournament rules and a TO/judge should get involved.
Where is written that list must be placed face down?
1 hour ago, CaptainIxidor said:Things in videos really need to be clarified later in text. I'd follow the tourney regulation PDF before something said in a YT video.
Yeah. Some random YouTube video isn't an official rules source and you can't reasonably expect an opponent to know every comment the marketing guy said in every interview everywhere.
1 hour ago, CaptainIxidor said:Things in videos really need to be clarified later in text. I'd follow the tourney regulation PDF before something said in a YT video.
Tournament rules are not that clear. I tried to check it in different languages but no help.
2 minutes ago, KrisWall said:Yeah. Some random YouTube video isn't an official rules source and you can't reasonably expect an opponent to know every comment the marketing guy said in every interview everywhere.
For a tournament you should know the rules. And all rules must be clear.
6 minutes ago, Palter94 said:Where is written that list must be placed face down?
Well...
"Each player's identity card must be visible and accessible at all times." AND you can't look at the list once the game has started. Pretty hard to be visible and accessible BUT not able to look at it if the list side is face up?
The rule book also requires the card to be in play and shows it list side down in the accompanying image.
Edited by KrisWallJust now, KrisWall said:Well...
"Each player's identity card must be visible and accessible at all times." AND you can't look at the list once the game has started. Pretty hard to be visible and accessible BUT not able to look at it if the list side is face up?
You are saying that but this cannot be proved until we read it on a tournament sheet rule.
Just now, Palter94 said:You are saying that but this cannot be proved until we read it on a tournament sheet rule.
Rule book, Page 2 - "Each player places their identity card to the left or right side of their play area."
So, it definitely has to be on the table.
Rule book Page 4 - Setup image shows list face down identity card.
Tournament rules require that the card be visible and accessible at all times but don't allow your opponent to view the list side during game play.
I honestly don't see how you could look at the above and come to any other conclusion that the card has to be visible but with list side face down. Playing with it list side up doesn't look like the sample play area image and also basically makes it impossible for the card to be visible and accessible to your opponent while simultaneously not allowing them to view the list. I also don't know why this is so important that you keep challenging it.
4 hours ago, Palter94 said:You are saying that but this cannot be proved until we read it on a tournament sheet rule.
4 hours ago, Palter94 said:Tournament rules are not that clear. I tried to check it in different languages but no help.
4 hours ago, Palter94 said:For a tournament you should know the rules. And all rules must be clear.
Page 4 of the Keyforge Tournament Regulations says that in Archon format you can only look at an opponent's decklist prior to the match starting, with a standard time of two minutes.
What's not clear about this?
23 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:
Page 4 of the Keyforge Tournament Regulations says that in Archon format you can only look at an opponent's decklist prior to the match starting, with a standard time of two minutes.
What's not clear about this?
Page 4 also say that deck list are accessible at all times and on Offical Keyforge Crucible Cast Ep.1 video it has been said the exact opposite of what you are talking about. I am sure that "only" in that sentence is an error. The Official video is born to answer this kind of missunderstanding and rules issues.
4 hours ago, KrisWall said:Rule book, Page 2 - "Each player places their identity card to the left or right side of their play area."
So, it definitely has to be on the table.
Rule book Page 4 - Setup image shows list face down identity card.
Tournament rules require that the card be visible and accessible at all times but don't allow your opponent to view the list side during game play.
I honestly don't see how you could look at the above and come to any other conclusion that the card has to be visible but with list side face down. Playing with it list side up doesn't look like the sample play area image and also basically makes it impossible for the card to be visible and accessible to your opponent while simultaneously not allowing them to view the list. I also don't know why this is so important that you keep challenging it.
The meaning of "Accessible" is not clear .
For me "Accessibile at all times" is the exact opposite of "cannot see and cannot check while playing".
The word accessible is an adjective, describing a noun as something that is "able to be reached."
I think it's fair to say this means the owner of a deck must put the identity card in a place where he/she can reach it. The next statement in the rules document then clarifies that in an Archon format you can only review an opponent's accessible card list for two minutes prior to the match. I don't think there's a contradiction there at all. Once the match starts you can't look at it. Further, it has to be accessible at all times but in a sealed tournament format you aren't allowed to look at your opponent's accessible card list at all. I think that is intentional for both formats.
It feels like you want to be able to look at your opponent's decklist at any time and are trying to find a loophole around a rule that says you can't. As is already seen you're not going to find many agreeing with you and I don't think any amount of arguing on your part is going to change that. At this point I'd recommend submitting an Official Rules Form as that is your best bet for an official answer. As always if we're proved right I promise not to say "I told you so" and if it turns out you are right, hey congratulations.
Best of luck.
9 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:The word accessible is an adjective, describing a noun as something that is "able to be reached."
I think it's fair to say this means the owner of a deck must put the identity card in a place where he/she can reach it. The next statement in the rules document then clarifies that in an Archon format you can only review an opponent's accessible card list for two minutes prior to the match. I don't think there's a contradiction there at all. Once the match starts you can't look at it. Further, it has to be accessible at all times but in a sealed tournament format you aren't allowed to look at your opponent's accessible card list at all. I think that is intentional for both formats.
It feels like you want to be able to look at your opponent's decklist at any time and are trying to find a loophole around a rule that says you can't. As is already seen you're not going to find many agreeing with you and I don't think any amount of arguing on your part is going to change that. At this point I'd recommend submitting an Official Rules Form as that is your best bet for an official answer. As always if we're proved right I promise not to say "I told you so" and if it turns out you are right, hey congratulations.
Best of luck.
What a mr. president answer.
"Any amount of arguing on my part"? I've got the OFFICIAL video that is in my favor. But probably another person who did not care about the yt video. This one is my arguing part and that is why i am wondering this.
Official rules form is not that good for now ( about time behaviour). I have sent different rules mail on different arguments but still no answer like many other people did.
I'll thank you not to be insulting in your replies, there's no need for it.
I have watched the video, and the thing is I don't think it supports your stance. If anything it coincides with the tournament regulations. He asks the question "Can I see my opponent's deck list" then answers it saying it depends on the format.
He goes on to say that in Archon format you can show your opponent your identity card and your deck list is common knowledge. That aligns with the tournament rules document where it says your opponent can see your deck list for two minutes prior to the start of the match. They aren't contradicting statements at all. He didn't even use the phrase "accessible at all times."
So there you go. I think the "official" video goes hand in hand with the tournament regulations. I don't understand why you would think they contradict even though I am trying to see your point of view here. You can keep trying to elaborate but suffice to say you're going to have a hard time convincing me now. Expect that to get even more difficult if you do not remain civil.
1 hour ago, TheSpitfired said:I'll thank you not to be insulting in your replies, there's no need for it.
I have watched the video, and the thing is I don't think it supports your stance. If anything it coincides with the tournament regulations. He asks the question "Can I see my opponent's deck list" then answers it saying it depends on the format.
He goes on to say that in Archon format you can show your opponent your identity card and your deck list is common knowledge. That aligns with the tournament rules document where it says your opponent can see your deck list for two minutes prior to the start of the match. They aren't contradicting statements at all. He didn't even use the phrase "accessible at all times."
So there you go. I think the "official" video goes hand in hand with the tournament regulations. I don't understand why you would think they contradict even though I am trying to see your point of view here. You can keep trying to elaborate but suffice to say you're going to have a hard time convincing me now. Expect that to get even more difficult if you do not remain civil.
I don't need to convince listless people. You were a bit rude in your first message, not me.
By the way my question does not depend on the format because I writed Archon and not sealed format. Furthermore, they used the phrase accessible at all times in video and on tournament sheet as well. Just read carefully over the "max 2 min" sentence. Either on the video listen from 2:55 minute and you will find what I am trying to explain.
My question purpose was just to check other people way of thinking. Of course everyone may think at this like they want as long as Keyforge is a brand new game and need time to discover it.
Have a good day.