At first pass, it seemed to me that Grappling Struts only offered Vulture Droids one means of intentionally leaving an asteroid or debris cloud on which they had parked: the 2 forward maneuver. Then I remembered that while sitting and spinning on rocks, they still get actions, including barrel roll. They can barrel roll off the obstacle! On the following turn, the language about not executing maneuvers is conditional on being range zero of an obstacle, so you could execute the maneuver you selected. Barrel rolling off an obstacle is a substantial increase in their options mainly because the firing arc is now perpendicular to the direction of travel, rather than in line with it, and you could rotate 90 degrees before performing the barrel roll. Being able to get off the rock in 7* different ways, is a lot better than only one way.

* 1) two forward 2) no rotate, br left. 3) no rotate br right. 4) rotate left, br left. 5) rotate left br right. 6) rotate right br left 7) rotate right br right

Your next maneuver would execute as normal and you would then flip the card back to the closed side. What I have not thought through exactly is what happens if that first maneuver overlaps another obstacle. I think it would flip down after executing, but then on your next turn you start on the obstacle with struts closed. I suppose you'd move from that position as a normal ship would, only having the option of parking on that obstacle if your next maneuver kept you on the obstacle (albeit in a different position).

It just occurred to me that while parked with struts open, your barrel roll might not take you off the obstacle. So, you could kind of waddle around on the same obstacle, if you wanted to and your rotates and barrel rolls kept you on it.

Hey, nice find!

The one important caveat here is that you can't roll if you would do so through an obstacle, so the Vulture has to be on the edge of the rock to roll off of it.

But yeah, that config seems crazier every time I think about it...

2 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Hey, nice find!

The one important caveat here is that you can't roll if you would do so through an obstacle, so the Vulture has to be on the edge of the rock to roll off of it.

But yeah, that config seems crazier every time I think about it...

Grappling struts allow vulture to ignore obstacles while moving, and a barrel rolling is moving!

The barrel roll came up briefly in I think the SoS preview article thread. I hadn’t considered how many different ending positions that could put you in, though!

I’m so psyched for Vulture Swarms, and the hype train is just getting faster. They’re going to fly so wonderfully differenty thanks to these struts and their easier turns compared to banks, and I’m hoping it lends some unpredictability to them if flown well.

What happens the next turn is also something I’m curious about, if you roll off and your struts are this left open for that turn.

Goodness the sheathipede and it’s coordinate is gonna be a truly great thing for this faction.

3 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

The one important caveat here is that you can't roll if you would do so through an obstacle, so the Vulture has to be on the edge of the rock to roll off of it.

Can’t you? You’re already ignoring the obstacle, no? Maybe we should get the card text in this thread.

12 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

The one important caveat here is that you can't roll if you would do so through an obstacle, so the Vulture has to be on the edge of the rock to roll off of it.

7 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Can’t you? You’re already ignoring the obstacle, no? Maybe we should get the card text in this thread.

Hiemfire's linking service... 😀

Article:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/1/8/seize-the-galaxy/

Closed:

Open:

While struts are open they flat out Ignore obstacles at range 0 of them.

I stand corrected.

Dang, Vultures are going to be nuts

21 minutes ago, matt.sucharski said:

Not to mention if you launch 2-forward and then barrel roll. Since the others include your action, you might as well count that as potential ending spots.

39 minutes ago, matt.sucharski said:

What I have not thought through exactly is what happens if that first maneuver overlaps another obstacle. I think it would flip down after executing, but then on your next turn you start on the obstacle with struts closed. I suppose you'd move from that position as a normal ship would, only having the option of parking on that obstacle if your next maneuver kept you on the obstacle (albeit in a different position).

With the way it's worded I think you have it pinned down correctly. So aim for Debris (since it closes after the maneuver is fully completed you don't get the stress from the debris cloud) and roll off that (no stress = still have action) or, if the template would cross the cloud (can't roll then with the struts closed), lock, calc, or reload your Energy-Shell Charges.

Does grappling struts mean you can’t k-turn to do a 180? So what happens if you select that - do you go 2 forward white?

1 minute ago, aswitcher said:

Does grappling struts mean you can’t k-turn to do a 180? So what happens if you select that - do you go 2 forward white?

If you are on an asteroid or debris cloud, and your struts are open, a k-turn is not a 2 forward, so you 1) stay on the obstacle, 2) skip the Execute Maneuver step, and 3) do not rotate 90 degrees because you did not select a left or right maneuver. There are a lot of conditionals on the Grappling Struts upgrade, so it will take time before most people get it right most of the time.

2 minutes ago, aswitcher said:

Does grappling struts mean you can’t k-turn to do a 180? So what happens if you select that - do you go 2 forward white?

If you are starting on an asteroid or debris cloud and dial in a 1K, you don't perform the maneuver, don't change facing and the stress is removed.

4 minutes ago, matt.sucharski said:

If you are on an asteroid or debris cloud, and your struts are open, a k-turn is not a 2 forward, so you 1) stay on the obstacle, 2) skip the Execute Maneuver step, and 3) do not rotate 90 degrees because you did not select a left or right maneuver. There are a lot of conditionals on the Grappling Struts upgrade, so it will take time before most people get it right most of the time.

Sounds right.

Barrel roll red focus on the same asteroid should also work.

i wonder if the separatists can drop cargo nets - if they would then they could create a wall of turrets

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

So... you have to end the maneuver on the obstacle, right? If you move through an obstacle but don’t end at range 0 of it, what happens? Can you flip the struts to ignore the obstacle’s effects, still? Or is it too late once you pass it, as you are no longer moving by the time you flip the card, and no longer at range 0?

Perhaos more importantly, if you manage to zoom through an asteroid, but end your maneuver on the new type of obstacle, you can flip the struts thanks to the asteroid, right? But the open struts allow you to ignore any obstacle at range 0?

Eesh these things are a logistical nightmare to word well.

11 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

So... you have to end the maneuver on the obstacle, right? If you move through an obstacle but don’t end at range 0 of it, what happens? Can you flip the struts to ignore the obstacle’s effects, still? Or is it too late once you pass it, as you are no longer moving by the time you flip the card, and no longer at range 0?

Perhaos more importantly, if you manage to zoom through an asteroid, but end your maneuver on the new type of obstacle, you can flip the struts thanks to the asteroid, right? But the open struts allow you to ignore any obstacle at range 0?

Eesh these things are a logistical nightmare to word well.

From the way that Overlap and Maneuver are explained in the Rules Reference I think we have to end the maneuver on the obstacle. We can't just dive blindly through them and get the benefit of the ability.

Overlap ( Pg. 14 )

While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it OVERLAPS an object if the ship's final position would physically be on top of an object.

A ship FULLY executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship. If a ship executes a maneuver and overlaps a ship, it must PARTIALLY execute that maneuver by performing the following steps:

Move the ship backward along the template until it is no longer on top of any other ships. While doing so, adjust the position of the ship so that the hashmarks in the middle of both sets of guides remains centered over the line down the middle of the template.

Once the ship is no longer on top of any other ship, place it so that it is touching the last ship it backed over. This may result in the ship returning to its starting position.

The ship skips its Perform Action step.

Even though a ship that partially executes a maneuver must skip its Perform Action step, it can still perform actions granted from other game effects.

Even if a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is still treated as having executed a maneuver of the indicated speed, bearing, and difficulty.

Maneuver ( Pg. 13 )

A maneuver is a type of move that a ship can execute. Each maneuver has three components: speed (a number 0-5), difficulty (red, white, or blue), and bearing (an arrow or other symbol). Each bearing is also further defined with a direction.

A ship can EXECUTE a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:

Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching template.

Take the template that matches the maneuver from the supply.

Set the template between the ship's front guides (so that it is flush against the base).

Pick up and place the ship at the opposite end of the template and slide the rear guides of the ship into the template.

Return the template to the supply.

Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one stress token.

Additionally:

While executing a maneuver, if a ship would be placed at the end of the template on top of another object, it has overlapped that object.

While executing a maneuver, if only the template was placed on top of another object, the ship has moved through the object.

While executing a maneuver, the ship is picked up from its starting position and placed in its final position. The full width of the ship's base is ignored except in its starting and final positions.

If a stressed ship attempts to execute a maneuver with a red difficulty, the ship performs a white [2 ] maneuver instead.

A card effect can cause a ship to execute a maneuver that does not appear on its dial.

While obviously the ability to turn and barrel roll off is super useful, don't forget that the barrel roll is essentially the shortest distance a given ship can move in the game.

I think it's worth looking at the difference in end position here in comparison to an actual firing arc at range 2 or 3. I think in most cases, if you range control well, you can line up a shot in the general direction of the asteroid and get to take it no matter which way the Vulture rotates and rolls.

It's not a huge amount of coverage in terms of actual distance.

11 hours ago, matt.sucharski said:

Put a ship in the bottom left corner of that second image, facing the rock and at range 1 of the two nearest Vultures and lets see how many of these actually fully clear arc.

It's not about dodging arcs, it's about pointing arcs.

1 hour ago, matt.sucharski said:

It's not about dodging arcs, it's about pointing arcs.

This exactly. A swarm is expecting some of its ships to be in arc. And it expects roughly half of the swarm to have arc on an enemy, at least. But Vultures have a capability to keep arc in a way TIEs don’t. (I won’t say they’re definitively better at this than TIEs, but it’s different.)

40 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

This exactly. A swarm is expecting some of its ships to be in arc. And it expects roughly half of the swarm to have arc on an enemy, at least. But Vultures have a capability to keep arc in a way TIEs don’t. (I won’t say they’re definitively better at this than TIEs, but it’s different.

Exactly. If they can take up positions and fire whilst hanging off rocks, then they can concentrate more fire on a given enemy (or concentrate fire more easily on a given enemy).

The downside is that they have to split up to do so, which is normally a big no-no in concentration of force in a swarm, and that they lack agility compared to a TIE/ln* and hit points compared to a Z-95.

* They can probably arrange for obstructed shots, but then that goes both ways, and you have to deal with Mining Guild TIEs who can dance around rocks just as well and are likely to come pre-loaded with trick shot.

Also, for a quick note - closing the struts requires you to execute a manoeuvre (and the only legal manoeuvre to execute, whatever you reveal, is a 2-forward). That leaves a couple of interesting interactions with Tractor weapons - since you can only open the struts on a rock, the system kind of assumes you still will be when the ship activates. If you tractor a landed vulture and pull it off the rock, it's not stuck doing a speed 2 straight because it's not "at range 0 of an asteroid or debris cloud", but it is still "ignoring them as it moves" meaning it turns into Dash Rendar for a turn.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

They  can probably arrange for obstructed shots, but then that goes both way  s

Does it? They’re ignoring the obstacle, hasn’t that pretty well been confirmed to mean any negative effects, such as obstructing their attacks? Maybe it needs to be clarified in this particular case as well, but.

8 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

If  y  ou tractor a landed vultur  e  

Or if they choose to Barrel Roll off on their own. It’s an interesting detail.

12 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

While  e  xecuting a maneuver, if only the template was placed on top of a  nother object, the ship has moved through the object.  

Ah, thanks, I didn’t recall that one. So many slight variants on the same phrases/effects 😅

Since the Vulture droid ingnores the obstacle that means they shoot without the obstructed penalty and they defend with it.

If a vulture is STANDING on the rock, would it be more of a cartwheel, instead of barrel roll?

Don't forget to account for coordinating a barrel roll and then actually executing the maneuver on your dial when considering Roger-Roger shenanigans. I'm sure *someone* can take Squad Leader in that faction.

8 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Don't forget to account for coordinating a barrel roll and then actually executing the maneuver on your dial when considering Roger-Roger shenanigans. I'm sure *someone* can take Squad Leader in that faction.

If not, they’ll surely be getting a Sheathipede sooner than later.

On 1/15/2019 at 2:19 PM, skotothalamos said:

Don't forget to account for coordinating a barrel roll and then actually executing the maneuver on your dial when considering Roger-Roger shenanigans. I'm sure *someone* can take Squad Leader in that faction.

Probably the meat (or partial-meat) pilots like General G.