1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

That's why I haven't been to X-Wing night since the remaining players all declared they were going to play exclusively Scum a couple months ago.

Ow... If there was ever a reason to be even a little irked about a faction, this is definitely a strong one. In my opinion, a diverse faction pool is necessary for a healthy gaming environment, among other things. Everyone playing the same sets of lists would turn me off to any game.

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Ow... If there was ever a reason to be even a little irked about a faction, this is definitely a strong one. In my opinion, a diverse faction pool is necessary for a healthy gaming environment, among other things. Everyone playing the same sets of lists would turn me off to any game.

I'm wondering if X-Wing is dying at that store. The last few nights I went, it was just me and two other players, and I have yet to see that store put out any Wave II product. Maybe I need to look for other groups in the area. With enough people, I may even find some willing to try out scenarios or campaigns.

Eh, I'll check in and see how the games look once the new point lists drop.

Just now, JJ48 said:

I'm wondering if X-Wing is dying at that store. The last few nights I went, it was just me and two other players, and I have yet to see that store put out any Wave II product. Maybe I need to look for other groups in the area. With enough people, I may even find some willing to try out scenarios or campaigns.

Eh, I'll check in and see how the games look once the new point lists drop.

Republic and Separatists may help re-fire it. Maybe.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Republic and Separatists may help re-fire it. Maybe.

Nothing brings people together like secession!

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

I do leave Scum players to theirs. That's why I haven't been to X-Wing night since the remaining players all declared they were going to play exclusively Scum a couple months ago.

And honestly, the argument itself is less about people liking or hating Scum, and more about being very irritated by claims like, "there's similar stuff in other factions". I have not, by any means, examined every card in the game, but the examples I have been shown all seem to be different at the fundamental level, and similar only at the must superficial. The one non-Scum card I've seen with Scum-like design is Ten Numb, so I make no defense of that one. For the rest, I just fail to see how "make a choice to trade-off one bonus for a different bonus, or trade one enemy penalty for a different enemy penalty" is at all similar to "gain a bonus, and then gain another bonus, and do it automatically because there is literally no reason ever not to, even in theory."

Look at Sloane again. You only addressed half of her before. The other half allows for friendly rerolls (range 1 - 3) against stressed targets. So, Sloane gives a bonus (rerolls), and then give another bonus (giving stress to enemy ships just playing the game, feeding into her first bonus) and she does it automatically because there is literally no reason to ever not to, even in theory. We are ignoring points here because you do and I don’t buy the “she’s using a crew slot” defense. Same opportunity cost applies to buying a ship over upgrades. I likewise don’t agree with your “but it costs a death” for part of Sloane’s ability. The Sloane swarms I have seen use TIE Fighters and they were going to die anyway.

Let’s also look at Vader. Yes, he spends a Force for his ability. But that’s because his ability is so much worse than stealing green tokens. Ever seen what happens when he’s used on a ship with no token to lose? I have. Several times. It’s unblockable damage.

Now, you may dismiss this and that is your right. But that doesn’t change that I think you are being inconsistent with your standards. You yourself admitted that Vader should take an action as well. Yet when a Scum thing has similar perceived imbalance, you go for the “Scum shouldn’t exist”option. That doesn’t make sense.

Look, I’m genuinely sorry for your situation at your home store. Your looking for something and your fellow players aren’t helping with that. It’s frustrating and it’s easy to blame the obvious target. But now you are communicating that a portion of the player base shouldn’t get to play the faction they like. Intended or not, that’s what I get from you. Is that what you want to communicate?

13 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But now you are communicating that a portion of the player base shouldn’t get to play the faction they like. Intended or not, that’s what I get from you. Is that what you want to communicate?

The Scum faction does not fit in the design of the game and should not exist. Precisely.

2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

The Scum faction does not fit in the design of the game and should not exist. Precisely.

Ah. I see.

Let me leave you with a story, then. Not too long ago, I was picking up a Scum Conversation Kit from a store I was visiting. While waiting to check out, another man saw what I was purchasing and struck up a conversation. During this, I learned that he had bought into 1.0 previously. His love in Star Wars was the Bounty Hunters, so he bought them. He didn't know what they did or how good they were, but he didn't care. He had what he wanted. He then tried to join a game group, but was greeted by a bunch of comments along the lines of "Scum? Oh, you are one of those players." So, he went home and sold his X-Wing stuff and hasn't touched it since.

Your stance reminds me of this story for obvious reasons. I'm sorry you feel this way. Good day.

21 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Look at Sloane again. You only addressed half of her before. The other half allows for friendly rerolls (range 1 - 3) against stressed targets.

This is a constant effect, rather than an activated ability, so it's a little more difficult to judge. Most constant effects don't have trade-offs, and are meant to be costed appropriately. Again, the case may be made the Sloane's is too powerful (maybe make it cost a recurring charge, so it was once per turn?) but the fundamental idea of a constant effect isn't inherently undesirable.

24 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

So, Sloane gives a bonus (rerolls), and then give another bonus (giving stress to enemy ships just playing the game, feeding into her first bonus) and she does it automatically because there is literally no reason to ever not to, even in theory.

You're talking about two different game effects here, as opposed to getting two bonuses from a single activated ability.

25 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I don’t buy the “she’s using a crew slot” defense. Same opportunity cost applies to buying a ship over upgrades.

Except crew have absolutely nothing apart from their ability. Pilots have their ship in addition to the slot. For instance, Palob costs 38, but at least 32 of that is the ship (based on Spice Runner), with another couple points for the I3. There's still a little cost, but not much.

32 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I likewise don’t agree with your “but it costs a death” for part of Sloane’s ability. The Sloane swarms I have seen use TIE Fighters and they were going to die anyway.

Yes, some of the fighters will die anyway, but usually I would expect to at least try to save them for a while, or have them do something, unless they're being deliberately sacrificed (implying some loss). I can understand saying that the trade-off is almost always worth it, but I honestly don't get how you can claim it's not a trade-off.

35 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Ever seen what happens when he’s used on a ship with no token to lose? I have. Several times. It’s unblockable damage.

Oh, yeah. The couple times I've flown against Imps, Vader was on there (tip: Vader being around is a good reason for Luke to Focus). He was pretty potent, but honestly most of the time I chose to keep my tokens and take the damage, because one damage isn't usually as bad as losing the token, unless I'm down to my last hit. And fortunately, Vader offers me that choice.

If people want to play Scum, fine. I just want to point out that they are quite different from the other factions, even if the people who play them feel that difference is perfectly fine. I do find it significant that the Scum players I've talked to in person even proudly proclaim themselves the Trolling Faction. But, if people weren't convinced before, they probably still wont' be convinced by this, so I should probably call it quits here. Good night, and may the Force be with you!

5 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Here's 3x shooting at Strikers (note, if you jump to range 1, they still 4dice you)

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=BgU&a2=BQc&a3=AgM

quarter of the time, before crits.

At the risk of poking a plot hole, no it doesn't.

I'm not questioning the maths generated by Gate Of Storms, but rather the premise of the maths - 8 damage to a focused agility 2 target is not the same as killing two separate 4-hull ships with focus tokens each with a total of three attacks, because however you slice it, that result must include a one-shot-kill, and neither Luke nor Wedge have better than a ten to twelve percent chance of pulling that off on their own.

(in fairness, since Biggs shoots last and will shoot at whoever survived, that does increase to more like 20% since one or the other pulling it off will be sufficient)

The amount of overkill on the ship which gets double-tapped (which is what at least one or two points of damage in most combinations of dice results represent may be emotionally satisfying but it doesn't actually benefit you in the game.

Secondly, as noted, you're not trying to get 4 damage, you're trying to get 5 because you can give every sentinel a shield or hull upgrade and still stick below the 40-point "x five" threshold. That means that out of that list, barring lucky criticals Fenn Rau is about the only pilot on that list capable of a one-shot-kill.

5 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Shield upgrade sentinels are not a good idea. Countdown exists if you want to do that ****.

True but Countdown is pointedly 44 points - more expensive than Duchess, in fact - and spending more than 40 points on one ship means spending less than 40 on another, meaning the remaining strikers will lack toughness-boosting modifications and - since your opponent will take the easy kills - are likely to be shot first. Plus, countdown's ability is great (no denying that) but if he's being shot by 2 attackers at once, it's not massively useful.

6 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Holy **** that's a lot of ******* nothing. And if you don't remove luke ASAP, he's fully capable of clowning on ou via Supernatural.

He is. However, despite that, the assumption that someone would choose to try and remove luke when protected by Biggs via massed fire (meaning luke's ability and biggs' ability triggers against every attack) is questionable at best. Taking Biggs out first is painful because it's him doing his job, but you need to remove a ship as fast as possible and if the two aces are within range 1 of him you are wasting your time firing at them with 'just' 3-dice attacks.

8 hours ago, millertime059 said:

Like my last game, I managed to mostly get the first engagement I wanted (one Striker was just barely at the edge of 3 and died, having managed to only eat two missiles) but the next turn I threw 17 red dice, and 7 green (I didn’t take many return shots), but the dice did me no good. 5 paint on Attack, one on defense. At that point it was simply playing for MoV, as the numbers got equalized that turn.

Interesting list. Del Meeko is a clever thought - I was talking to a friend about using him as a wingman in a "Vader & Stuff" squad because the fact his ability benefits any platform, not just TIE fighters like Iden Versio, seems very powerful once you get your head around it. He's also maybe not an obvious target like Wampa or Howlrunner would be.

And whilst I agree, getting 5 bits of paint in 17 red dice is sacrifice-them-to-the-dice-gods level. The probability against that is sufficiently high (ignoring the green dice entirely) that even if you'd got two force/target lock aces lobbing 3 dice each, it's the equivalent of both of them completely blanking out at the same time. Obviously probabilities are always 100% for the individual concerned at the time, but I can only offer my sympathies and say that with the best will in the world that shouldn't have happened.

11 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

And whilst I agree, getting 5 bits of paint in 17 red dice is sacrifice-them-to-the-dice-gods level. The probability against that is sufficiently high (ignoring the green dice entirely) that even if you'd got two force/target lock aces lobbing 3 dice each, it's the equivalent of both of them completely blanking out at the same time. Obviously probabilities are always 100% for the individual concerned at the time, but I can only offer my sympathies and say that with the best will in the world that shouldn't have happened.

Oh sure, it was an unfortunately bad spot of luck on a turn where I’d managed to block 3 ships of his, and had mods myself. Other than the front Striker being in range 3 the turn before I’d pretty much managed the engagement I wanted. Nothing to do but take it in stride, try to play for as much MoV as possible, and congratulate my opponent after.

But that’s my point. It’s very dice dependent, and with the preponderance of 4 I4+ ship lists it doesn’t even have the efficiency to make up for it. You may have numbers, but not that much more. And if the initial engagement goes poorly for you, it’s very hard to come back from.

That said what it does very well against is two super ship lists. And if Rey Poe and Kylo Blackout type lists become a big thing? It can have a place. It’s just the current meta, especially where I go, has a ton of 4 ship protorp alpha out there, or three ship Trench Run, and these are extremely uphill battles. If you don’t take out at least one ship on the initial engage, you probably will lose.

On 1/14/2019 at 9:10 PM, Caduceus01 said:

I have seen a few people make this argument and it doesn’t really add up to me. Someone who knows the game well could probably do a point adjustment for every ship and upgrade in the game in one 8 hour work day.

I agree, someone who knew the game COULD easily adjust points well in a day... but FFG wont do that

we're looking at a company who either purposefully blow balance up with consistent power creep, or completely fail to understand their product. it makes no sense that someone involved in game design would not understand that the Jumpmaster had absurd stats at launch, for example.

On 1/16/2019 at 2:12 PM, JJ48 said:

The Scum faction does not fit in the design of the game and should not exist. Precisely.

I was with you up until here - on what basis does it not fit in with the design of the game.

Similar to an earlier anectode - I had a couple of mates who were playing and they encouraged me to give it a go. Having stopped playing Warmachine because I just simply did not have the time to devote to playing it I decided I would give it a go as it said games were short and the model count was low and better still they were already painted. So I asked - "which faction is Jabba the Hutt in" as he has always been a character I loved from the original movies. So I became a scum player. Thankfully, the group i play with welcomed the extra diversity this added to their games and I haven't looked back.

If you don't enjoy playing against scum and the style that they bring then I fully understand and congratulate you for making a choice to avoid those games. But to say the faction has no place is a bit extreme.