2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

She's far more important than that because she doesn't only work with stress from kills. The control element is also " You see all those lovely red actions and red manoeuvres on your ship's bar and dial? How much do you want to use them? Enough to give my entire squad a free target lock on you? No? Didn't think so. Hope you didn't pay too many points for them....."

I'm intrigued by the comment about strikers. I'm not sure what 'conversion rate' is in this context.

Black Squadron Scouts probably are overpriced - they were in 1st edition too, at the same price as "Countdown" for no benefit relative to the unique ace.

Thing is that unless you have a decent plan to exploit that Initiative 3 and Talent Slot (and....errmmm.....I dunno. 5 x Ruthless, maybe? But the Striker feels a bit expensive and flimsy for that talent to work well. Maybe Predator?), I fail to see the benefit of the Black Squadron Scout over the generic I1 Planetary Sentinel (aside from the awesome pilot card artwork).

The Sentinel looks on first impression to be in a fairly decent place - losing lightweight frame sucks but a shield upgrade is frankly an equal or better substitute since you still get the same number of green dice against 2-dice attacks (and TIE fighters are back in spades), at range 3 against 3 dice, or when obstructed, and having flown a heavy swarm for the last 2 years, I can attest from painful experience that those situations come up more than you want them to. Equally, it's most iconic wave 14 completion (the 20 point Flight-Assist-Astromech X-wing) has been taken out and shot behind the chemical sheds, and the Zealous Recruit has been pumped up to 44 points base, leaving far fewer rival heavy swarms to compete with, most of which (aside from the Cartel Marauder) don't really have a 3rd attack die are dependent on actions to get their third die from missile upgrades).

Understand that this is me speaking from a position of ignorance. I've played more games with Strikers than any other ship and I love them dearly, but I only got my 2nd Edition conversion sets over (for) Christmas, and my first set of games was Yavin format so was a strictly TIE/ln only affair. Hopefully I'll get some games in with them soon.

The Krayts have been tracking all appearances of every card\pilot in the game, and how many of them make cuts. The average should be 13%. Boba fett for example is over 23% conversion. That's wildly better than average. Wedge is a hair over 10%- slightly worse than average. The generic strikers are all at 0%. No cuts made.

(This gets built upon since bad players will copy popular good lists and flying poorly, so it's not a law- Redline is better than Deathrain, but deathrain converts higher since there will be less bad copycats on Deathrain)

The 1.0 t65 in wave 14 was 'pretty good" when it had Crackshot and the striker was absolute **** in comparison.

The issue with the striker generics is that they simply aren't very good at jousting. If people try to kite the strikers they will lose, as the strikers have great turning- but if they just fly their "aces" straight at you and joust your "jousting" squad, you just lose strikers. Boba Fenn Lando, Soontir Whisper Redline, ****, Biggs, Luke, Wedge: all 3 squads you can expect to see that can drop 2 strikers before they shoot, and take little damage in return.

We are in an i5+ alpha strike meta currently, and i3 generics serve little point except to die.

Comparing it to the T-65 i3 generic (not a great ship either: 0% conversion as well)- 5 points for 2 shields.

The alleged jousting lists of All Strikers need to actually be better at jousting than 3 ship ace lists for generic strikers to be viable.

Ah. Major Tournament Entry - to - Cut position. Fair enough.

17 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The issue with the striker generics is that they simply aren't very good at jousting. If people try to kite the strikers they will lose, as the strikers have great turning- but if they just fly their "aces" straight at you and joust your "jousting" squad, you just lose strikers. Boba Fenn Lando, Soontir Whisper Redline, ****, Biggs, Luke, Wedge: all 3 squads you can expect to see that can drop 2 strikers before they shoot, and take little damage in return.

We are in an i5+ alpha strike meta currently, and i3 generics serve little point except to die.

Comparing it to the T-65 i3 generic (not a great ship either: 0% conversion as well)- 5 points for 2 shields.

The alleged jousting lists of All Strikers need to actually be better at jousting than 3 ship ace lists for generic strikers to be viable.

This. The Striker is such a terrible jouster that you're better off running more TIE LN's so you can actually survive an engagement and shoot back at something. The aces are amazing but I think the ship has the worst generics in Hyperspace due to the limits of the chassis.

6 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

That's not the best argument for it at all, and that's not what @SpiderMana said.

You made an incorrect claim and SpiderMana corrected you. No one made any significant arguments for Hyperspace, just pointed out a gaping hole in your argument against it.

I get that you personally don't like Hyperspace, but you need to stop shoving your fingers in your ears and going "la la la" whenever anyone tries to talk to you about it.

it is not incorrect, FFG OP said Hyperspace is going to be what they use for completive format, Not Extended not 2nd edition.

But immediately you guys went on the offensive because hyperspace format is under attack by those that don't like it, but nice to know you found your click of supporters that can give you solace from all the mean things those very very bad men say . I just find it ironic that those that support it rush to say "worlds won't be in Hyperspace" (when it clearly is going to be) instead of Hyperspace Format is the better format and Worlds should be in Hyperspace .

But hey, people who prefer extended have already been called fascists, so I guess expecting cordiality was a fools errand.

11 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

it is not incorrect, FFG OP said Hyperspace is going to be what they use for completive format, Not Extended not 2nd edition.

But immediately you guys went on the offensive because hyperspace format is under attack by those that don't like it, but nice to know you found your click of supporters that can give you solace from all the mean things those very very bad men say . I just find it ironic that those that support it rush to say "worlds won't be in Hyperspace" (when it clearly is going to be) instead of Hyperspace Format is the better format and Worlds should be in Hyperspace .

But hey, people who prefer extended have already been called fascists, so I guess expecting cordiality was a fools errand.

What the actual #!¢&.

FFG has not said worlds would be Hyperspace (again, if I’m wrong, feel free to show me where), nor that Hyperspace is their only competitive format. They have repeatedly said there will be varied formats for competitive play. Don’t believe me?

On top of that, I’ve never supported Hyperspace. I don’t have a problem with Hyperspace itself so much as the fact that everyone seems to think it’s the only format, when it clearly isn’t.

Learn some reading comprehension or stop being a troll, please.

1 hour ago, impspy said:

This. The Striker is such a terrible jouster that you're better off running more TIE LN's so you can actually survive an engagement and shoot back at something. The aces are amazing but I think the ship has the worst generics in Hyperspace due to the limits of the chassis.

I mean, the chassis is fun and interesting and ****. The problem is that Ace Combo Squads/Rube Goldberg Lists with words joust better. Either named pilots and proton torps need to get drastically more expensive, or we need to see 30 point Sentinels and 32 point Scouts.

I'm not sure about lists, but I do hope that they a) fix everything the community has noted as even slightly off (just taking community consensus values, where they exist, if they don't have time for comprehensive playtesting), or b) at least fix the Jumpmaster (and other large ships). That's the one ship that matters to me in terms of points rejigging (it's the only large base I own!).

5 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The 1.0 t65 in wave 14 was 'pretty good" when it had Crackshot and the striker was absolute **** in comparison.

The issue with the striker generics is that they simply aren't very good at jousting. If people try to kite the strikers they will lose, as the strikers have great turning- but if they just fly their "aces" straight at you and joust your "jousting" squad, you just lose strikers. Boba Fenn Lando, Soontir Whisper Redline, ****, Biggs, Luke, Wedge: all 3 squads you can expect to see that can drop 2 strikers before they shoot, and take little damage in return. 

We are in an i5+ alpha strike meta currently, and i3 generics serve little point except to die.

Comparing it to the T-65 i3 generic (not a great ship either: 0% conversion as well)- 5 points for 2 shields.

The alleged jousting lists of All Strikers need to actually be better at jousting than 3 ship ace lists for generic strikers to be viable.

I'd like to politely disagree with some of these points. Note: I'm not saying that the striker couldn't use a leg up (and I very much feel the Scout is not worth 4 points over the Sentinel; make it 35 or 36 to the Sentinel's 34 and then try again with Hull Upgrade or Elusive), but I don't feel it's as bad as made out here.

1. The wave 14 Crackshot Zealot was powerful, but it did give up both flight assist's repositioning and integrated astromech's extra hit to get it, which added to the lower pilot skill relative to the Scarif Defender meant the strikers did have a fighting chance of outflying them, and whilst they'd trade casualties, shooting first and getting to pull tricks like bank away/speed turn back gave them a nasty edge in a fight. Crack Zealots were a successful list but whenever I saw them were mostly with astromechs as well, which were no longer a 20 point unit, getting 5 ships thanks to the ludicrously potent for its cost Sheathipede command shuttle.
2. I disagree that you're likely to loose two strikers before you shoot. One, yes, but not two - and at medium range four strikers can ventilate an X-wing or similar (Wedge or Biggs rather than Luke) in a single engagement phase without too much luck. Fenn is a bit of an exception but even taking the nasty alpha strike lists, they're not that killable - a big part of their appeal when they first came out relative to generic interceptors of the same price was the 4th hull. Added to Planetary Sentinels being able to equip a shield upgrade to reach 40 points, and you need 5 damage for a kill. I don't disagree that a striker pilot hit with multiple torpedoes is going home in a bin bag, but realistically, the most alpha strikey alpha strike delivers 3 4-dice attacks at high initiative, with two of them double modified with the force or focus/lock and the other just single modified with a focus or target lock (swarm wedge/dutch/luke, for example). Killing a 4-hull ship with a 4-dice attack requires perfect red dice and blank green dice, and even assuming the torpedo rolls perfect every time, theres something like an 85% chance of at least one evade, leaving the striker alive. And even that's not enough because of that shield token.
3. There are exceptions, but stuff like Fenn Rau/Talonbane/Proton Rockets/Massed Heavy Laser Cannons/Launched Bombs is much more positioning-specific and you can try to outfly that in a way you can't outfly the range 2-3, full arc torpedo.
4. Dropping Sentinels by a single point (33) is sufficient to allow you to field 6, and that by itself is a scary thought. 6 3-dice primary attacks is 18 red dice slung downrange per turn, more than a full 8-ship TIE swarm (more than any x-wing squad not using one-use missiles, in fact) and in larger, more effective chunks to boot. More to the point, losing a ship still leaves you with more red dice than a perfect cruise-missile-ace trio from the nastier bits of 1st edition. Making Black Squadron Scouts 32 makes it even worse since you leave enough points for Ruthless, adding in one of the most potent dice modifiers going, and with as many hits in the squadron as a full TIE swarm or T-70 baby blues, they have hull to burn, and shooting first. I'm not saying 6-striker squads cannot ever happen but it's something which needs to be approached carefully and certainly not by jumping to fielding the elite generics by the six-pack first.

23 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Friendly ships lose lock tokens, at the cost of Kagi gaining them. Trade-off.

How do friendly ships lose locks? Kagi doesn't move friendly locks, he moves enemy locks off of a friendly ship. He's incredibly annoying to deal with when you have a list with ordnance and Kagi just lags behind his buddies and stays out of range for the first engagement.

6 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

How do friendly ships lose locks? Kagi doesn't move friendly locks, he moves enemy locks off of a friendly ship. He's incredibly annoying to deal with when you have a list with ordnance and Kagi just lags behind his buddies and stays out of range for the first engagement.

JJ48 specified the tokens, which is accurate though they're downplaying the power of shutting down an alpha strike or forcing a target change by doing so.

Rogue Squadron Escort (63)
Outmaneuver (6)
Fire-Control System (3)
R2 Astromech (6)

Rogue Squadron Escort (63)
Outmaneuver (6)
Fire-Control System (3)
R2 Astromech (6)

Miranda Doni (48)
Hotshot Gunner (7)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Total: 216

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

possibly with Sabine as well.

4 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I mean, the chassis is fun and interesting and ****. The problem is that Ace Combo Squads/Rube Goldberg Lists with words joust better. Either named pilots and proton torps need to get drastically more expensive, or we need to see 30 point Sentinels and 32 point Scouts.

I’d agree. And this is as someone who has tournament flown a list with 3 Sentinels, 2 Alpha Interceptors, and Del Meeko.

I can win with it, but the problem is the 4 ship munitions lists are just so close to a hard counter. It’s very likely that your numerical advantage is gone before you shoot.

And if you fly well and are able to take an advantageous first engagement (I.e. try and get from just outside R3 into blocking range) if your dice go cold at the first shooting, you’re probably done.

Like my last game, I managed to mostly get the first engagement I wanted (one Striker was just barely at the edge of 3 and died, having managed to only eat two missiles) but the next turn I threw 17 red dice, and 7 green (I didn’t take many return shots), but the dice did me no good. 5 paint on Attack, one on defense. At that point it was simply playing for MoV, as the numbers got equalized that turn.

Its tough, it’s a list that is very dice dependent even when flown well, you simply can not afford to have a bad initial engagement. At times very effective, at others? Not so much.

I managed to get half points on 3 ships, 1 health on Deathfire left, and 1 away (he rolled double evade my last shot) from half on all ships.

Shame, I like the list, but the theoretical efficiency advantage of generics isn’t quite enough, especially with high I munitions being ever present.

59 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

JJ48 specified the tokens, which is accurate though they're downplaying the power of shutting down an alpha strike or forcing a target change by doing so.

It's useful, sure, but it's not exactly a secret that it's coming; it just means Kagi needs to be the primary target. If you focus fire on a shuttle, it goes down incredibly quickly.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

It's useful, sure, but it's not exactly a secret that it's coming; it just means Kagi needs to be the primary target. If you focus fire on a shuttle, it goes down incredibly quickly.

Same can be said for Palob, Gun Runners or any of the other Scum control pieces. Kagi is also allot more tanky than any of those.

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Same can be said for Palob, Gun Runners or any of the other Scum control pieces. Kagi is also allot more tanky than any of those.

Though Palob almost does the opposite of Kagi, as Kagi makes it easier for the opponent to destroy him, whereas Palob strips ships of the Focus they need for offense, while adding it to his own defenses.

Plus an extra green die and a much better dial? I'd rather face Kagi than Palob any day.

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Though Palob almost does the opposite of Kagi, as Kagi makes it easier for the opponent to destroy him, whereas Palob strips ships of the Focus they need for offense, while adding it to his own defenses.

Plus an extra green die and a much better dial? I'd rather face Kagi than Palob any day.

Kagi doesn't need to be in range of an attacker for his ability to work and has no arc requirement, Palob has to be in range 0-2 and have the target in arc. The extra green die is partially mitigated by Kagi's Reinforce. Kagi has twice the hp. When you factor in base size the difference's in dials end up being a wash. Palob is also allot easier to init kill. Palob is allot easier to deal with, even with Moldy.

6 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Kagi doesn't need to be in range of an attacker for his ability to work and has no arc requirement, Palob has to be in range 0-2 and have the target in arc. The extra green die is partially mitigated by Kagi's Reinforce. Kagi has twice the hp. When you factor in base size the difference's in dials end up being a wash. Palob is also allot easier to init kill. Palob is allot easier to deal with, even with Moldy.

My experience has been precisely the opposite. I've spent several games trying to take down Palob, and I think I managed one hit on him in one game. Shuttles? Even with Reinforce they go down in 4-5 shots max.

Most importantly, you can still Focus against shuttles.

13 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

My experience has been precisely the opposite. I've spent several games trying to take down Palob, and I think I managed one hit on him in one game. Shuttles? Even with Reinforce they go down in 4-5 shots max.

Most importantly, you can still Focus against shuttles.

Then you've been having really bad luck with your dice and your opponents have been have good luck with theirs.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Then you've been having really bad luck with your dice and your opponents have been have good luck with theirs.

Maybe, but seeing as how that hasn't changed in thirty years of playing with dice, it's unlikely to start changing now.

29 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

My experience has been precisely the opposite. I've spent several games trying to take down Palob, and I think I managed one hit on him in one game. Shuttles? Even with Reinforce they go down in 4-5 shots max.

Most importantly, you can still Focus against shuttles.

Take it from someone who has both played with and against Palob a lot: He can be a tough cookie, but is still fragile. Maybe you should try to change up your tactics. It will likely serve you better than seeking his removal from the game.

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Take it from someone who has both played with and against Palob a lot: He can be a tough cookie, but is still fragile. Maybe you should try to change up your tactics. It will likely serve you better than seeking his removal from the game.

Oh, I'm not seeking his removal from the game; I know that's a futile effort. I'm just saying he should be removed from the game.

I'm still working on trying lots of different lists before settling into anything specific. Maybe one will magically make Scum enjoyable to play against, but I have my doubts.

7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Oh, I'm not seeking his removal from the game; I know that's a futile effort. I'm just saying he should be removed from the game.

I'm still working on trying lots of different lists before settling into anything specific. Maybe one will magically make Scum enjoyable to play against, but I have my doubts.

But still turn a blind eye to similar stuff in other factions. Forgive me for harping on this, but you harp on Scum. I'm sorry it's not your cup of tea, but is your complaining about it actually helping? I've had to deal with tons of stuff in this game and others that annoyed the stew out of me, but I learned how to adjust to reduce its affect on me because it wasn't going to change and complaining did nothing either. Take control of your fun, leave Scum players to theirs.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'd like to politely disagree with some of these points. Note: I'm not saying that the striker couldn't use a leg up (and I very much feel the Scout is not worth 4 points over the Sentinel; make it 35 or 36 to the Sentinel's 34 and then try again with Hull Upgrade or Elusive), but I don't feel it's as bad as made out here.

1. The wave 14 Crackshot Zealot was powerful, but it did give up both flight assist's repositioning and integrated astromech's extra hit to get it, which added to the lower pilot skill relative to the Scarif Defender meant the strikers did have a fighting chance of outflying them, and whilst they'd trade casualties, shooting first and getting to pull tricks like bank away/speed turn back gave them a nasty edge in a fight. Crack Zealots were a successful list but whenever I saw them were mostly with astromechs as well, which were no longer a 20 point unit, getting 5 ships thanks to the ludicrously potent for its cost Sheathipede command shuttle.
2. I disagree that you're likely to loose two strikers before you shoot. One, yes, but not two - and at medium range four strikers can ventilate an X-wing or similar (Wedge or Biggs rather than Luke) in a single engagement phase without too much luck. Fenn is a bit of an exception but even taking the nasty alpha strike lists, they're not that killable - a big part of their appeal when they first came out relative to generic interceptors of the same price was the 4th hull. Added to Planetary Sentinels being able to equip a shield upgrade to reach 40 points, and you need 5 damage for a kill. I don't disagree that a striker pilot hit with multiple torpedoes is going home in a bin bag, but realistically, the most alpha strikey alpha strike delivers 3 4-dice attacks at high initiative, with two of them double modified with the force or focus/lock and the other just single modified with a focus or target lock (swarm wedge/dutch/luke, for example). Killing a 4-hull ship with a 4-dice attack requires perfect red dice and blank green dice, and even assuming the torpedo rolls perfect every time, theres something like an 85% chance of at least one evade, leaving the striker alive. And even that's not enough because of that shield token.
3. There are exceptions, but stuff like Fenn Rau/Talonbane/Proton Rockets/Massed Heavy Laser Cannons/Launched Bombs is much more positioning-specific and you can try to outfly that in a way you can't outfly the range 2-3, full arc torpedo.
4. Dropping Sentinels by a single point (33) is sufficient to allow you to field 6, and that by itself is a scary thought. 6 3-dice primary attacks is 18 red dice slung downrange per turn, more than a full 8-ship TIE swarm (more than any x-wing squad not using one-use missiles, in fact) and in larger, more effective chunks to boot. More to the point, losing a ship still leaves you with more red dice than a perfect cruise-missile-ace trio from the nastier bits of 1st edition. Making Black Squadron Scouts 32 makes it even worse since you leave enough points for Ruthless, adding in one of the most potent dice modifiers going, and with as many hits in the squadron as a full TIE swarm or T-70 baby blues, they have hull to burn, and shooting first. I'm not saying 6-striker squads cannot ever happen but it's something which needs to be approached carefully and certainly not by jumping to fielding the elite generics by the six-pack first.

1. You took both Crack and IA and FAA- The Zealot was best at 21 points. You ran 4 and 16 points of filler, or 3 and miranda or something.

2. Shield upgrade sentinels are not a good idea. Countdown exists if you want to do that ****.

Also, here's some math.

Here's 3x shooting at Strikers (note, if you jump to range 1, they still 4dice you)

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=BgU&a2=BQc&a3=AgM

quarter of the time, before crits. And it's the worst at actually alphaing. It's almost like it has a Supernatural Reflexes Regenerating ace to kill your i1/3 strikers with.

Here's Fenn Boba Lando

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=UQgAAAAAAgAA&a2=QwgAAAAAAAAA&a3=IwgAAAABAAAA
And here's the Squad of Legend, Soontir Whisper Line.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AgAAAAAAAAAA&a1=QQgAAAAEAAAA&a2=QwgAAAAQAAAA&a3=QQgCAAABAAAA

These get into "Wait, what the **** man" territory. Remember,

this is assuming that their supremely maneuverable aces just fly straight the **** at you without a care in the world.

Then, here we go- Shooting back at them.

Lets assume boba got unlucky and only killed one of them.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=ggABAAYAAAAA&a1=BAE&a2=BAM&a3=AgM&a4=AgM

This is your entire squad unloading on boba. wow, only need to let that happen 3 more times!, but boba moves after you with reposition and his squad pops a striker and a half every single round. so it's, uhh... not great.

3. Talonbane is bad and not in hyperspace, but fenn Rau has a 5 forward and boost on his action bar. He gets a vote too. His vote counts for more than yours. I didn't even factor the fact that Finch and the like exist, and if you want to bring in extended, ****ers like Deathrain and god **** Genius Nym.

4. 5 Striker+Wampa is 18 red dice as well. It's not very good.

You don't get much more when you make Wampa into a Sentinel.

The problem here is that Aces are better at jousting than generics. Generic-only lists are really god **** bad right now, with the exception of Quad Phantom because it turns out having 4 copies of Juke lets you actually kill aces.

27 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Take control of your fun, leave Scum players to theirs.

I do leave Scum players to theirs. That's why I haven't been to X-Wing night since the remaining players all declared they were going to play exclusively Scum a couple months ago.

And honestly, the argument itself is less about people liking or hating Scum, and more about being very irritated by claims like, "there's similar stuff in other factions". I have not, by any means, examined every card in the game, but the examples I have been shown all seem to be different at the fundamental level, and similar only at the must superficial. The one non-Scum card I've seen with Scum-like design is Ten Numb, so I make no defense of that one. For the rest, I just fail to see how "make a choice to trade-off one bonus for a different bonus, or trade one enemy penalty for a different enemy penalty" is at all similar to "gain a bonus, and then gain another bonus, and do it automatically because there is literally no reason ever not to, even in theory."

<sigh> Maybe I just need to realize that some people simply won't be convinced, and not try to correct every single little mistake I see.

Also, have you actually tried shooting at Trench Run?

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=ogAAEAMAAAAE&amp;a1=AgE&amp;a2=AgM&amp;a3=AgM&amp;a4=AgM

Holy **** that's a lot of ******* nothing. And if you don't remove luke ASAP, he's fully capable of clowning on ou via Supernatural.

And i'd like to clarify. Trench Run is a mediocre squad. Sub-10% conversion rate. It can dumpster 5Striker.