Hello,

I know this had been discussed somewhat in different posts, but I'm having trouble figuring out which circumstance warrants challenge dice rather than misfortune dice. I understand that FFG purposely avoided providing strict tables, but some additional guidelines would certainly help.

For example, if a Reiklander Hunter shoots an arrow with a shortbow at a goblin at medium range who is running for his life through a thick forest in at dusk, how does this translate in challenge and misfortune dice? That seems like something which is rather hard to do, but is it hard as in 3 challenge dice, or hard because its still a simple test (1d) (shooting a target at medium range) with 1 Md for the running goblin (sort of like dodge), 1-2 Md for the trees (obstacles) and 1 Md for the low light? If it's the latter, then when do you assign more than 1d difficulty anyways (aside from in opposed checks?)

Any help would be appreciated.

I'm walking out the door, but wanted to post quicklike on this.

Challenge dice (IMO) mean how tough the overall task is. How difficult would it be on a clear/sunny day to take the shot?

Misfortune dice are the things that can screw up the shot on a sunny day (thick grass/rain/clouds/etc).

Keltheos pretty much hit the idea. Challenge dice represent how difficult the action is under perfect conditions. Misfortune are additional modifiers representing worsening conditions. It's mostly a matter for the GM to adjudicate

For example, with your situation, as a GM I'd say ...

1. A normal ranged shot has a <P> challenge.

2. Shooting in the woods is significantly different enough to warrant an additional difficulty to the shot itself, thus adding <P>

3. The target is dodging amongst the trees adds a

4. The forest is thick, with trees close together adding a

5. The forest is dim, adding for low light (which can be negated by elf and dwarf racial ability, of course)

Similarly, for example:

A player wants to perform a trick shot, like splitting another arrow. I might say this is a Difficult <PPP> ranged attack action.

If it's brightly lit, with little to no wind, etc, there might be no other modifiers.

However, say there's a gusty wind + , there an anxious and noisy crowd + , and the target is in the shade + .

dvang said:

Naaah, not possible. Mythbusters busted the "Robin Hood split arrow" thingy

Dvang already explained this well but you can approach this problem from different (purely gamist) angle as well:

One Challenge dice can replace two Misfortune dice. Note that this increases a chance for Chaos Stars, giving option for more flavourful outcome to skill check.

I use the more technical concept as mentioned. Challenge dice represents the difficulty of the task under normal situations, misfortune/fortune dice represent modifiers to the normal situation. In terms of game context though. I add in dice when I add description. Without getting all preachy, it's a huge strength for WFRP 3. You can describe a scene and then add dice that fit that description. This is something I never felt comfortable in doing in previous editions or in most other games that use a more static modifier. So if they are fighting in the mud during a thunder storm and 30mph winds, they'll get two misfortune dice in melee and 3 for ranged, but so will the monsters. Basically what it comes down to is use the dice to help support the description of the scene and don't worry about adding to many dice, in fact I'd suggest it's almost better to use to many dice then to few.

Kryyst said:

Why ?

To sell more dice ?

No but really, why ?

Glimnir said:

If the goblin is dodging in between the trees, then it's fine to add a challenge die. You also add a number for misfortune dice based on the goblins defence. You could also add a few extra misfortune dice because of the targets cover. If the goblin also has a shield and is blocking with it, another challenge die is added.

Generally combat only adds one challenge die to the pool and only if the target is using reactive defence cards will you add more (dodge, parry, block). For modifiers like the trees etc. you would simply add some misfortune dice.

It's up to you as a GM. By the rules you simply use default challenge for combat of 1D, modified by the difficulty on the players action card. Any bonuses the defender has is added as misfortune dice.

Also you can if you want assign active defense action cards to your npcs to allow them to perform dodges and other such things which will further give them bonus dice to increase the challenge. Also remember aggression points can be spent to increase defenses even more.

If you want for example to say that the trees are in the way, you can add a misfortune dice or two to the roll, and if you want to say that the goblin is actively dodging behind trees, spend aggression points to increase the amount of misfortune.

Challenge dice are very powerful when it comes to negative effects, so be careful with assigning them too much.

Silverwave said:

Ok, apologies in advance for going completely off topic (and this is meant in good fun, not in a snide or snarky way).

Understand that I haven't seen the Mythbusters segment in question, but I can assure you the shot is possible. Perhaps the arrow won't react in the traditional Hollywood style of fracturing down the shaft but a good archer do his part of the trick.

www.youtube.com/watch

(Please ignore the kinda scary militia/survivalist intro, it was the only youtube clip I could find. It's a bit long, the Robin Hood shot starts at about 5:00. And yes, I'm a little biased as I worked on the show presented here. If anything it's a fun bit of archery trick shooting, hopefully folks will enjoy it. Byron is very good with the bow.)

Distraction over, please resume the rather interesting mechanics discussion.

Jericho said:

Why what, exactly?

Why more description and more dice? The honest answer is I like to roll more dice or hand out more dice. It looks and feels impressive. But the GM reason is that because if I'm taking the time to describe something I want to make those descriptions more then just pointless fluff, otherwise what's the point really. If the muddy, slippery tree root covered path doesn't impart any kind of tactical difficulty then why put it in there at all? The simple fact that WFRP 3's dice don't guarantee a penalty means I can use them more frequently to imply potential risk and not severely punish a player.

So compared to say WFRP2 if I hand out a 10% penalty to a starting player that's almost a gurantee of failure, 2 misfortune dice on the other hand not a big deal. That's the why of it.

That's what I wanted to know.

I'm more on the many dice if possible side myself, because a single Misfortune die doesn't impact much, it's possible to do so.

But I just wanted you to explain how you arrived to the conclusion that many dice is generally better than none.

Kryyst said:

Amen to that, this is what I love about it.

Totally agree with Kryyst's post. It can greatly add to the RP atmosphere if you can describe the scene, and add a die for it. This includes both good and bad. I also reward my players for describing their attack, or saying something in character as they attack, by giving them an additional Fortune die.