Since I think I do not really get what "court" in Rokugan/L5R encompasses, I have a question that may seem a little stupid: The examples for "intrigue scenes" imply that there are officially arranged meetings between a lord and multiple factions (since without multiple factions an intrigue (rule term!) would probably not be necessary), so my question is, how does this actually work?

1) Who gets invited, i.e. why multiple factions at once and not one after the other? Is it that there are official court meetings where everyone is present and allowed to pursue their agenda? Or is it mostly meetings with persons whose agendas (as far as the lord knows about them) relate to each other in some way?
If the invited factions are not part of the lords household, what kind of samurai of the lord's own household are present and how much are they going do join in the debate?
Or is court actually completely different, maybe everyone can enter (and leave?) the "official court room" and interact with the lord and the other participants at certain times every day/week, while nobody who doesn't want to has to attend (except if invited officially)?

2) Assuming that there is such a thing as an "official court room", how formal are these meetings? Is everyone assigned a place, where they have to sit the whole time and do the participants have to speak to each other in a way, that the lord can follow everything which is said? Or is everyone free to move and approach each other as they like, and to split up into multiple groups or duos who sometimes talk about completely different things (allowing you to eavesdrop, join their debate etc)? In that case, what would the lord be doing the whole time?
Would it also be possible to attend such official court meetings and play games while being there (thus allowing you to use the "Games" skill in such scenes to achieve your goals)? And could you take someone aside in order to have a personal conversation with them (or play a nice game!) or to just separate them from the rest (which sounds like a narrative explanation for the use of Stonewall Tactics ) or would this be considered rude?
So, basically, are these just relatively normal conversations, albeit in a special location, or is it way more formal, with strict rules to observe regarding who can talk etc?

Sorry for all these questions, hopefully they don't seem to confusing! I can't fully explain what I mean in english, so I hope you guys understand my questions nevertheless 😀 I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fluff and the crunch of courts and intrigues...

we do need (at least, it would be nice) some examples of Mass Combats and Intrigues.

I know.. the super brains here would say "nah they don't need to provide us with that, it is clear, you are dumb etc etc".

but, my humble opinion is that; they need to put some of these encounters on paper, as general guidelines of the intentions, or at least the simplest idea of it.

I believe there's quite a lot of page space dedicated to kind of the day to day operation of Court in Emerald Empire. Somebody who owns a physical copy can double check on this, but from my own recollection skimming, any holding of significant size has a "court" or audience room, where the local Lord spends a significant chunk of his day taking audiences and hearing people's petitions. If the Lord is sufficiently high-ranking and busy, visitors might first have to deal with any number of flunkies to arrange an audience in the first place, and if the visitors are of sufficient rank or matter is important, the Lord may have a private audience. In these sessions, courtiers tend to mingle in small groups and move around to speak on various matters, and depending on circumstance may end up speaking to the Lord directly, or perhaps just hope to get enough attention for one of the Lord's own courtiers to drop it in their ear.

In addition to visitors specifically seeking something from a Lord (support, grievance, funding, hospitality, etc) depending on the size and location of a Court it will have various courtiers from other groups as representatives. Presumably from other neighboring lords, perhaps major clan families in a holding of any size, but location might have more from other Clans as well. A Lion castle on the border near Dragon and Unicorn lands probably has a couple courtiers from either Clan handy in place for political negotiations. The court of a Clan Champion or Imperial Governor will probably have a whole retinue of courtiers from each Great Clan and even relevant Minor Clans around to conduct ongoing political business.

8 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

we do need (at least, it would be nice) some examples of Mass Combats and Intrigues.

I know.. the super brains here would say "nah they don't need to provide us with that, it is clear, you are dumb etc etc".

but, my humble opinion is that; they need to put some of these encounters on paper, as general guidelines of the intentions, or at least the simplest idea of it.

Examples would be nice, but they probably wouldn't answer @Stollentroll17 's questions, since those are about protocol more than about mechanics.

As for that protocol:

1) it's really whatever you want it to be, but you can expect it to be somewhat like modern political summits or industry conventions. Court events typically have planned activities - actual negotiation sessions, if that's the purpose of the court, but also entertainment, mixers and meals - as well as "free time". That free time (and possibly any time not designated for negotiations) will be used for unofficial talks; basically this gives the parties involved plausible deniability about what gets said, everything's off the record, and officially those meetings never even took place. It also allows the people involved to choose who is present, to set the agenda separately from the official one, to get an idea of what might work and what won't before going with them publicly and so on. The official negotiations are, well, official and thus definitely on the record. The presence of the local lord (or a representative) provides a witness who is assumed to be impartial and, more importantly, has a high enough status that it's presumably impossible to contradict their recollection of what happened during those official sessions (that lord might still make off the record suggestions to court participants of course, he'll probably just do so through an intermediary or via an off-hand remark in an unguarded moment).

2) Rokugan is a very formal society. If the occasion warrants it, it will consequently be formal as well. Again, it's what you want to make of it though: using or subverting the formal protocol could be a great way of playing mindgames with opponents, for instance. On the other hand, expect clan culture to change things significantly: the Cranes' idea of what's proper for high-level negotiations is very different from the notions of the Crab, to use two extremes.

Bottom line: do what you want. If you think it something will be good for your roleplaying, go for it. Look at the clans involved and think how they would typically engage a court situation: if it fits your idea of what's correct for samurai from such a clan, it'll be right..

1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

Examples would be nice, but they probably wouldn't answer @Stollentroll17 's questions, since those are about protocol more than about mechanics.

yes they would, because they would give a frame of reference.

if you read a book, or watch a movie, and there is a scene (intended use of the word) about a situation (in this case a court), you can then define and imagine the limits and rules of these situations much more easily. how does an high elf "court" works in Lord of The Ring ? do they need to define to you all the exact detail of it for you to understand it ? no. they merely have to include a few examples.

sure, there might be some intricacies that would need a "sourcebook" to understand and define, but generally, a few examples will right off the bat explain a lot, more than enough, to play the game.
right now, the game is THIN on examples, maybe to save printed pages, maybe because they didn't consider it relevant and they want people to play the game how they want. Though, it is still my opinion that giving some examples (through quest modules is the best way to do it imo, but the quests haven't been "that" good, yet) would make the setting much easier to grasp for newcomers and potential players.

11 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

if you read a book, or watch a movie, and there is a scene (intended use of the word) about a situation (in this case a court), you can then define and imagine the limits and rules of these situations much more easily. how does an high elf "court" works in Lord of The Ring ? do they need to define to you all the exact detail of it for you to understand it ? no. they merely have to include a few examples.

Examples would be a start, but an example of a court where the Crab receive ronin regarding a Twenty Goblin Winter is not going to be anything like a Unicorn daimyo hosting a court for an Emerald Magistrate who's handling shenanigans between feuding groups and neither will resemble a Mantis Winter Court or a formal trade negotiation court hosted by the Crane or the Otomo.

Looking at the old Winter Court sourcebooks could give a good idea, if @Stollentroll17 can get his hands on them.

definitely. but gameplay examples are the best way to "teach it". at least I think.

4 hours ago, Stollentroll17 said:

Intrigue Scenes. How does this actually work?

1) Who gets invited...snip....

2) ...snip... is everyone free to move and approach each other as they like, and to split up into multiple groups or duos who sometimes talk about completely different things (allowing you to eavesdrop, join their debate etc)? In that case, what would the lord be doing the whole time? ...snip...

Formal intrigues are great for any time you get lots of people with different agendas in one place. The gatherings most appropriate for large groups are often formal. But that doesn't mean that you don't have opportunities to move around and mingle. Think about your own real world experience with a funeral, a wedding, or a festival. Add setting specific locals and occasions like a court case that has wider implications or a gempuku graduation. Or a gathering of new recruits to fight on the Wall. All these places provide a time and places that could draw in a lot of people with competing agendas ... or be used by powerful people as an excuse to meet and debate/decide things. But I would note a mountainside Inn where everyone waits out a terrible storm, or a ship passing between two cities also make great places to run a formal intrigue scene. All you need is to have a motley (uh...I mean interesting) collection of NPCs on hand and stakes that are worthy of the PCs interest and time. IMO Quentin Tarantino's movie Hateful 8, mostly a long scene at an Inn in a snow storm, is an extended intrigue scene until the final act where people start killing and dying. Kurt Russel's character and sidekick (and Samuel Jackson as their ally) try to suss out who in the Inn might be a danger to them and their goal of taking a prisoner in for the bounty on their head and subsequent hanging. Most of the other people are there to liberate the prisoner, though they originally appear to be in different groups passing through.

(1) Who gets invited should be a combination of (a) relevant stakeholder + (b) people you want involved in the intrigue. The wedding guests should primarily be from the families of thew bride and groom, but friends, local dignitaries or others "passing through" might also be invited. Plus if you really need a Mantis captain to be there for a plot point you are working on ... then put the Captain there and invent a reason that can pass the smell test. (If you can't come up with a reason because you are in the Dragon Mountains give him or her a former romantic history with another NPC...)

(2) Most of the time I would say yes. People mingle before and after weddings vows ... but probably NOT during the actual vows themselves. In that sense it might make sense to break up an intrigue into movements. At a wedding you might have 2 full cycles of actions before the vows. 1 cycle where you can't really move about while the vows are being recited (and woe to you, if you loudly mess up the ceremony!) And a couple of cycles after the vows to finish things up. What the Lord is doing during the time is ... what the Lord has to do by way of social obligations. And what the Lord wants to do. Speaking to a prominent NPC is probably doable most of the time (But maybe not while the actual wedding vows are being exchanged...

Hope that helps.

Also, as UnitOmega notes the EE book provides lots of details about what a formal court looks like during a normal day of activities.

I'm breaking it down because this will take a bit of time to explain and I'm not going at it from a purely rules perspective.

27 minutes ago, Stollentroll17 said:

Since I think I do not really get what "court" in Rokugan/L5R encompasses, I have a question that may seem a little stupid: The examples for "intrigue scenes" imply that there are officially arranged meetings between a lord and multiple factions (since without multiple factions an intrigue (rule term!) would probably not be necessary), so my question is, how does this actually work?

1) Who gets invited, i.e. why multiple factions at once and not one after the other? Is it that there are official court meetings where everyone is present and allowed to pursue their agenda? Or is it mostly meetings with persons whose agendas (as far as the lord knows about them) relate to each other in some way?
If the invited factions are not part of the lords household, what kind of samurai of the lord's own household are present and how much are they going do join in the debate?
Or is court actually completely different, maybe everyone can enter (and leave?) the "official court room" and interact with the lord and the other participants at certain times every day/week, while nobody who doesn't want to has to attend (except if invited officially)?

Historically Court is a bit of a catch all term for any decision making institution. It doesn't even have to be a formal institution. For a series of reasons, that are not relevant but which you'll probably pick up as we go along it has also been expanded to include the extended household of the chief decision maker in the court (King, Magistrate, Emperor, Daimyo, Count, whatever). A modern aquivalent would be both judicial courts (or tribunals) and national or local parliaments and assemblies rolled into one. They can even be itinerant, which would be the case of medieval European courts, and to a lesser extent pre-Heian Japanese courts, and which have a Rokugani near-equivalent in the Emperor's Winter Court hosted by a vassal.

What that means is that "court" will consist of both more private sessions and more open sessions depending on the matter to be adjudicated. Purely private audiences will be rare because the purpose of a court tends to mandate the presence of witnesses to confirm the decisions taken. It's not exactly a case of anyone can come and go as they please either, but walk ins can happen as part of the proceedgings.

Pulling media examples, if you have seen Kagemusha you see a few examples of both private and public audiences and the first half hour or so of Ran as well.

The Shogun mini-series as lot of those as well.

If you've read a Song of Ice and Fire, which is fairly good at showcasing some of the tensions and inner works of Courts that also appy to Rokugan, Bran in Winterfell and Daenery in Mereen also have, relatively, private audiences, but there are quite a few that are more extended and in the show you also have these (there be spoilers ahead if you care about that):

Incidentally, this last scene you can a few small conflicts playing out. It might be interesting to translate some of these scenes through the rules mechanics.

BTW, from a purely rules perspective I see no reason why a intrigue conflict must be resolved in a single scene. I might be missing something in the rules, but it seems feasible to handle them over multiple scenes.

Quote

2) Assuming that there is such a thing as an "official court room", how formal are these meetings? Is everyone assigned a place, where they have to sit the whole time and do the participants have to speak to each other in a way, that the lord can follow everything which is said? Or is everyone free to move and approach each other as they like, and to split up into multiple groups or duos who sometimes talk about completely different things (allowing you to eavesdrop, join their debate etc)? In that case, what would the lord be doing the whole time?
Would it also be possible to attend such official court meetings and play games while being there (thus allowing you to use the "Games" skill in such scenes to achieve your goals)? And could you take someone aside in order to have a personal conversation with them (or play a nice game!) or to just separate them from the rest (which sounds like a narrative explanation for the use of Stonewall Tactics ) or would this be considered rude?
So, basically, are these just relatively normal conversations, albeit in a special location, or is it way more formal, with strict rules to observe regarding who can talk etc?

Sorry for all these questions, hopefully they don't seem to confusing! I can't fully explain what I mean in english, so I hope you guys understand my questions nevertheless 😀 I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fluff and the crunch of courts and intrigues...

Yes and no. Like I said, courts can be itinerant, but even an itinerant court will try to convene in a enclosed space even if it is a simple pavillion or a maku enclosure. As for procedure it will vary with the issues and with the presiding lord.

You might have individual petitioners being received in a way that would be superficially similar to a one on one interview, with just guards and scribes presents.

You may have disputes to be adjudicated, which could be handled in a single audience with all involved parties present but might also be handled in multiple audiences depending on the need to hear witnesses, investigate the matter or to confront either party.

They may also take form of a council where the lord seeks the advice of the court participants on some matter before making a decision. Depending on the court this may be a very formal affair with a very strict order of precedence or it may be more ad hoc depending on the convening lord.

It's important to notice that the above is mostly in regard to actual audiences but the Court is also a place of socialization, and what happens when socializing will have an impact on what decision are taken. No one will get out of an audience to decide tax policy for the coming year to play a game of go, but it is perfectly normal that in the downtime between audiences two courtiers might have come to an understanding, or might have plied the ear of their lord over a game of go.

There will be 'private meetings' between a lord (or often their minions) and factions, but big court events are there precisely so everyone can see what's going on - 'it got announced in the big court meeting' is often the point at which a proposal becomes a legally binding decision or new law.

'Backroom deals' are often where the decision is actually made, of course - so that when you finally get to the court, you're merely announcing a fait accompli.

Some examples from L5R fiction:

A Most Suitable Teacher - Imperial/Unicorn backroom deals: https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/d0/5e/d05ebe51-e750-4c22-8e69-44e52ed68c12/kiku_matsuri_postludea.pdf

Blind Ambition - Imperial/Scorpion backroom deals: https://vortex369math.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/21_blind-ambition.pdf

Court Games - A session of the Imperial Court: https://vortex369math.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/26_court-games.pdf

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 2:51 AM, Avatar111 said:

we do need (at least, it would be nice) some examples of Mass Combats and Intrigues.

I know.. the super brains here would say "nah they don't need to provide us with that, it is clear, you are dumb etc etc".

but, my humble opinion is that; they need to put some of these encounters on paper, as general guidelines of the intentions, or at least the simplest idea of it.

I'm not sure why someone would say that; worked through examples are always good, especially if it's the writer(s) doing it.

Thanks all, that helps a lot! It's quite a complex subject and I wanted to make sure, I am not doing it wrong completely. I am more or less familiar with courts in medieval Europe (and yes, I read ASoIaF^^), but I imagined it to work quite different in Rokugan. Well, considering your explanations, it maybe is not that "alien" and I can probably make it work somehow 😃 Court (and Courtesy!) is actually the part of the "physical" setting (in contrast to things like Bushido) which I am most "afraid" of as a GM who's rather unfamiliar with the historical/cultural inspiration for Rokugan.