This is mainly a fluff concern, but I do think it's a bit off that the VT-49 Decimator, which is supposed to be an intimidating and effective war ship, has weaker armaments than light freighters like the VCX-100 or the YT-2400. In my mind the Decimator's firepower should be at least on par with them, if only because its dedicated purpose is to be in war, whereas the freighters are, well, primarily freighters. In the lore, The VT-49 has two quadruple laser cannon turrets and a ton of missiles and bombs, while the freighters have double laser turrets, some single lasers and some missiles. So to me it makes little sense that a naked Decimator actually has weaker primary weapons than the freighters. One of the entries online states that its primary use was to firebomb infantry, but it would still be equipped with proper ship-to-ship firepower.

Arming it properly would make it even more expensive, but I would still love to see the Decimator portrayed as a properly powerful warship with fitting weapons. The arrival of the 2nd edition was an opportunity to fix it, but I guess titles and upgrades could do the trick. It's strange if you'd have to always bring Darth Vader along on a ship to make it capable of fulfilling its role.

Sources:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/VT-49_Decimator/Legends
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/VCX-100_light_freighter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/YT-2400_light_freighter

1 hour ago, Robin De Banque said:

In the lore, The VT-49 has two quadruple laser cannon turrets and a ton of missiles and bombs, while the freighters have double laser turrets, some single lasers and some missiles. So to me it makes little sense that a naked Decimator actually has weaker primary weapons than the freighters.

In fairness, the VT-49 was introduced in Star Wars Galaxies to give Imperial players an "Evil Millennium Falcon ", and it's firepower (double quad lasers) is exactly a match for the YT-1300, as it should be. The YT-2400 and VT-49 both suffer from "totally not the Millennium Falcon honest" syndrome, and both have slightly higher firepower but with some strings attached.

The YT-2400 'stock' firepower is indeed much weaker, but remember that the YT-2400 in the game isn't just the stock YT-2400 with civilian popguns in its turrets, it's Dash Rendar/Leebo's Outrider , which packed heavy laser cannons - less barrels but far more punch per shot.

The VT-49 is very much a compromise on the rules-writers part - it has 4-dice firepower but restricted to a single fixed arc, rather than the two mobile 3-dice arcs of the Decimator. I do think it's a bit odd, but I can't recall what proportion of the cannons on the ghost are light, medium or heavy laser cannons. The fact that at least some of the guns are fixed is why they went for the attack dice layout that they did, I suppose.

Either way, it's kind of assumed that whatever the 'stock' stats are, there's no such thing as a 'stock' corellian freighter in practice. Almost without exception they are heavily upgraded and usually up-gunned.

In fairness, the decimator is still a bit of a brute. Its access to reinforce makes it much more impressive, and Rear Admiral Chiraneau giving you a focus-to-critical whilst reinforced makes it quite the juggernaut.

If I could only have a couple dozen gun’d-up freighters in real life, I could dominate the high seas!!!!

On 1/10/2019 at 3:47 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

The YT-2400 'stock' firepower is indeed much weaker, but remember that the YT-2400 in the game isn't just the stock YT-2400 with civilian popguns in its turrets, it's Dash Rendar/Leebo's Outrider , which packed heavy laser cannons - less barrels but far more punch per shot.

...

Either way, it's kind of assumed that whatever the 'stock' stats are, there's no such thing as a 'stock' corellian freighter in practice. Almost without exception they are heavily upgraded and usually up-gunned.

The first argument would make sense if it was called "Outrider". As it is, "Outrider" is a title, meaning that unless you upgrade it to Outrider, what you're fielding is a non-outrider ship which still has the same weapon strength.

I buy the second argument, kinda, but: Why then isn't it possible to upgrade the weapons on a VT-49? The Imperial navy should be more than capable to do so. And have the resources. You would think they would equip their patrol ships to match the freighters they would be dispatched to control, which would then be up-gunned freighters.

Consider that the VCX-100 can fire three times per round, with strength 4, 3, and 2. At different targets, but still. The Decimator can fire a st 4 torpedo, but limits itself to a shot every other round if it wants to keep it up.

I'm sure there are balance and gameplay reasons. You can put Vader in the Decimator, which gives you one auto-hit per round. It just seems off that the Galactic Empire can't keep up with the technology and/or resources of smugglers and insurrectionists.

Let look at the real life and the armaments of rebels/civilians, military and private contractors like Blackwater.

Military will be always better armed then civilians. But the army has to arm hundreds of thousends of soldiers and it would be to expensive to equip them with the best gear available. On the other hand we have mercenaries who have smaller numbers and are usually better trained and equiped then the regular army.

Now going back to Star Wars - Decimator is better then most of the freighters he would have to engage. But there are smugglers with connections and access to better gear then the standard equipment of Emperial navy. That's why heavily modified vessels like Ghost, Outrider or the Falcon are better.

Let's say the Decimator outguns 90% of ships in his patrol area. Of course it would be possible for the Empire to change it, so it would be better then 99%. But it's more cost effective for it to call for backup, then to make Decimator better, but more expensive.

1 hour ago, Robin De Banque said:

Consider that the VCX-100 can fire three times per round, with strength 4, 3, and 2. At different targets, but still. The Decimator can fire a st 4 torpedo, but limits itself to a shot every other round if it wants to keep it up.

How are you getting 3 shots? I can see two - one and one bonus - but I'm not sure how you get a third.

1 hour ago, Robin De Banque said:

I'm sure there are balance and gameplay reasons. You can put Vader in the Decimator, which gives you one auto-hit per round. It just seems off that the Galactic Empire can't keep up with the technology and/or resources of smugglers and insurrectionists.

41 minutes ago, RealSpecter said:

Let's say the Decimator outguns 90% of ships in his patrol area. Of course it would be possible for the Empire to change it, so it would be better then 99%. But it's more cost effective for it to call for backup, then to make Decimator better, but more expensive.

This. It's a question of resources - Imperial military ships are built to a budget (25,000 star destroyers and all that) whilst a one-off, not optimised for mass production ship can be detectably better. The Starviper, for example, was Prince Xizor saying "I have all the money in the known universe and I'd quite like my own fighter" - even the Galactic Empire would go bankrupt trying to field those things by the tens of thousands as a primary space superiority ship, but half-a-dozen custom-made ships for the boss' personal security detail is (just about) within Black Sun's resources.

1 hour ago, Robin De Banque said:

The first argument would make sense if it was called "Outrider". As it is, "Outrider" is a title, meaning that unless you upgrade it to Outrider, what you're fielding is a non-outrider ship which still has the same weapon strength.

That's a holdover from first edition. In first edition - they did exactly that, making the generic YT-1300 detectably worse in every respect to the unique pilots. The result - whilst pleasing to my sense of the background - was that absolutely no-one ever used the generic YT-1300 until they (eventually) introduced a generic pilot with the same upgraded stats but no pilot ability or elite slot.

Trying to learn this lesson in 2.0, they've given almost everyone the same basic stats, even if a few bonuses are nailed on with titles.

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How are you getting 3 shots? I can see two - one and one bonus - but I'm not sure how you get a third.

Ghost with Phantom docked: 2 shots. Slap on a turret and Bistan or Ezra Bridger, and you can shoot Primary front at WP4, Attack Shuttle rear at WP3, and dorsal / ion turret at WP2/3.

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The result - whilst pleasing to my sense of the background - was that absolutely no-one ever used the generic YT-1300 until they (eventually) introduced a generic pilot with the same upgraded stats but no pilot ability or elite slot.

Abslutely. But they did it right with the Jumpmaster 5000, where the defaut was the stock ship, for every pilot, and you could upgrade it to the kick-*** modded heroic craft with the Punishing One title. Which meant you could fly the weaker, cheaper version if you'd like, or the modded ship for added oomph and cost. That could have been done with the other freighters. And the Decimator. But alas, no.

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Decimator is better then most of the freighters he would have to engage. But there are smugglers with connections and access to better gear then the standard equipment of Emperial navy. That's why heavily modified vessels like Ghost, Outrider or the Falcon are better.

Let's say the Decimator outguns 90% of ships in his patrol area. Of course it would be possible for the Empire to change it, so it would be better then 99%. But it's more cost effective for it to call for backup, then to make Decimator better, but more expensive.

That's one way of looking at it, and a reasonable one. But in that case it would have been nice to have access to the ship the Decimator would call for backup. This is probably my main gripe. The Decimator could have been that ship, but it isn't. Only time will tell if it gets made.

I don't quite agree though. You'd be hard pressed to find a present-day smuggler's boat that's got heavier armaments than a military patrol ship.

Anyhow, I guess I'll just have to wait until FFG releases a WP4 ship for the Imperial forces again. In the meantime I'll wallow in self-pity in the torpedo holds of one of my VT-49s.

I appreciate the arguments, I just think it's ... off.

41 minutes ago, Robin De Banque said:

Ghost with Phantom docked: 2 shots. Slap on a turret and Bistan or Ezra Bridger, and you can shoot Primary front at WP4, Attack Shuttle rear at WP3, and dorsal / ion turret at WP2/3.

Both the Phantom and Ezra are bonus attacks - a ship can only ever make one bonus attack.

41 minutes ago, Robin De Banque said:

But in that case it would have been nice to have access to the ship the Decimator would call for backup. 

We probably will. Sadly it's the Raider -class Corvette (or the Dauntless with a whole passel of upgrades and unique crew, I guess).

3 hours ago, Robin De Banque said:

I don't quite agree though. You'd be hard pressed to find a present-day smuggler's boat that's got heavier armaments than a military patrol ship.

In real life it would be probably impossible. But in Star Wars we have a whole fleet of X-wings and A-wings produced from scratch in secret. I'm sure rebel would need smugglers for that. And those smugglers could ask for military gear in return.

Other source of such tech - Hoth in the Old Republic times and Jakku after New Republic - Empire clash. High-end military gear could be scavenged there. We don't have such places on Earth.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Sadly it's the Raider -class Corvette (or the Dauntless with a whole passel of upgrades and unique crew, I guess).

Exactly what I would expect - Raider or a Gosanti with Ties.

8 hours ago, Robin De Banque said:

Abslutely. But they did it right with the Jumpmaster 5000, where the defaut was the stock ship, for every pilot, and you could upgrade it to the kick-*** modded heroic craft with the Punishing One title. Which meant you could fly the weaker, cheaper version if you'd like, or the modded ship for added oomph and cost.

Yeah, that's totally right.

Just look at all the non Moldy Crow HWKs that are being flown.

Or all the Jumpmasters dominating Scum lists.

Oh wait.....

8 hours ago, Robin De Banque said:

I don't quite agree though. You'd be hard pressed to find a present-day smuggler's boat that's got heavier armaments than a military patrol ship.

That's not a valid comparison, though.

The geopolitics of the Star Wars galaxy are totally different from modern Earth. There is so much uncharted space available in the galaxy, or areas that are simply beyond the reach of the government. Arms tech is also nowhere near as strictly controlled, and there is plenty of space for giant weapons factories to built hidden from the Imperial military.

The galaxy is far more similar to the American west, or the Age of Sail where criminals and non government aligned factions could realistically capture and keep weapons as capable as that of the governments.

Han is not some modern day Somali pirate mounting an old WW2 Browning machine gun to a dinghy. He's an age of sail pirate who's pulled the main guns off a man o' war and fixed them to well designed schooner.

On 1/21/2019 at 1:34 PM, Robin De Banque said:

I buy the second argument, kinda, but: Why then isn't it possible to upgrade the weapons on a VT-49? The Imperial navy should be more than capable to do so. And have the resources. You would think they would equip their patrol ships to match the freighters they would be dispatched to control, which would then be up-gunned freighters.

You've got this backwards.

The Imperial Navy did put the best guns that were cost effective and power efficient on the Decimator. And then Han stole some and put them on his freighter.

Lastly, I'm not really sure how this is relevant anyway. The X-Wing stats are nowhere near granular enough to be a perfect accounting of each ship's weapons.

The Decimator has a 3 dice primary because a 4 dice double arc turret would probably have been broken within the game's balacing. And a fixed arc 4 dice primary would not have been true to the role the designers wanted the Decimator to have as the Empire's large base turreted ship. It's as simple as that. Game balance > lore.

There are a number of reasons why the Decimator is not competitive in 2e, but it's weapons capability is absolutely not one of them. A 3 dice double mobile arc is a very solid primary. It has access to Proton Torpedoes, the best ordnance in the game. And with its access to bombs, it theoretically has very solid coverage in all arcs - ProTorps out the front, primary set to both sides and bombs out the rear.

Now that I think about it, it's the only ship that can do that. It literally has the highest red dice to coverage ratio in the game. How is that not exactly the powerful warship you're talking about?

Simple the decimator must make 2 attacks per turn to be worth it’s price.

maybe a ship ability for all decimators.

Numerous gunners- you may make a bonus attack from a turret arc at initiative 0.

This ability would allow using torpedoes without being inefficient, also makes veteran turret gunner not necessary to make the ship worth it’s price. Maybe it should be an arc that has not already been used, but then again the deci does cost the price of 2 or 3 ships before upgrades.

If you think this is too strong think about the ghost firing primary(4) plus turret(2) at the same target for 2 points more than a base deci.(Don’t you dare suggest raising the ghosts’ price as it is also not very effective atm.)

Another option would be some kind of ship ability to buff it’s torpedo slot something nasty enough to reliably kill an enemy ship if you somehow got them in front arc with lock maybe like..

extra torpedo tubes- When making a torpedo attack roll 1 extra die, and all torpedo upgrades start with 2 extra charges.

At the Decimator’s cost it must have the firepower of at least 2 ships as it is not durable enough considering half point threshold is only 8. The deci should also swap 2 hull for 2 shields as taking crits after 4hp will cripple either it’s mobility/offense/actions and any of those make it worse than a firepower 3 ship that costs half it’s price.

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Both the Phantom and Ezra are bonus attacks - a ship can only ever make one bonus attack.

Well that's something - I wasn't aware.

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Numerous gunners- you may make a bonus attack from a turret arc at initiative 0.

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extra torpedo tubes- When making a torpedo attack roll 1 extra die, and all torpedo upgrades start with 2 extra charges.

Those would be welcome improvements. Or even an Arsenal Loadout ability: "While you have exactly one disarm token , you can still perform and attacks against targets that you have locked. If you do, you cannot spend your lock during the attack. Add and slots." The star wing seems to have more space for loading mechanisms and ordnance tubes than the Decimator, which is about 10 times its bulk.

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makes veteran turret gunner not necessary to make the ship worth it’s price

So, I've read the veteran turret gunner as "After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus turret attack using a turret you did not already attack from this round." If you can make second attack against a second ship, that's something, and the ship is stronger than I thought.

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Now that I think about it, it's the only ship that can do that. It literally has the highest red dice to coverage ratio in the game. How is that not exactly the powerful warship you're talking about?

If you use torpedoes, you get two shots over two rounds but then need to reload. And you can't use veteran turret gunner. Use the turret and you can shoot at a different ship on the other side of you, which opponents will probably be sensible enough to avoid. Bombs are also limited in use, you either get 2 or you have to reload. Sure, you can fly around pointing weapons to all sides, but you probably won't get to exploit that firepower, because the game forces you to spread your fire instead of concentrating it.

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Yeah, that's totally right.

Just look at all the non Moldy Crow HWKs that are being flown.

Or all the Jumpmasters dominating Scum lists.

Oh wait.....

Oooh, sarcasm. Well done.

I seem to remember 3x contracted scouts being used considerably at some point.

Your role-play/story brain is fighting with your game brain.

Simply put, back when this released, FFG needed an Imperial “Millennium Falcon” for the faction. They reached out in the EU for the closest match and, bam!, Decimator.

Same for Ghost and Outrider. They needed different ways of skinning the same cat of stat lines. Different ways to blow up your buddy’s ships on the table... and look cool enough doing it your buddy would buy one too. Lol.

Actually, haha, this reminds me of a couple of my fellow X-Wing buddies discussing how to possibly balance torpedoes. One suggested to the other a variable cost based on pilot skill. The other responded by asking why good pilots had to pay more for their torpedoes when they cost the same to make..... laughter ensued. Haha.

Role-play brain vs. game-creation brain.

My game brain thinks the simplest fix is to drop the decimator by 10 points.

Now obviously there needs to be some continuity between the game world and the fantasy world on which it’s based.

They could make a Tie Fighter model with X-Wing like stats and a turret (*cough* Tie/SF *cough*) but it wouldn’t FEEL right. It would stretch the suspension of disbelief too far. There needs to be some “realism” but it will never be perfect.

The scale of the models is a perfect example of this.

9 hours ago, Robin De Banque said:

So, I've read the veteran turret gunner as "After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus turret attack using a turret you did not already attack from this round." If you can make second attack against a second ship, that's something, and the ship is stronger than I thought.

Correct, but firing your primary weapon from a turret arc is still a primary attack. Since the Decimator's two turret arcs are locked 180' apart, it takes some clever flying to get a target in both, but it is possible.

On 1/28/2019 at 3:45 AM, JBFancourt said:

Your role-play/story brain is fighting with your game brain.

Very much so.

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Simply put, back when this released, FFG needed an Imperial “Millennium Falcon” for the faction.

Sure, that was the case then. But in 2nd ed., they had a golden opportunity to fix it. Now they've tried to repair it by reducing the cost of the VT-49, but that doesn't address my main gripe.

On 1/21/2019 at 3:35 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

It's a question of resources - Imperial military ships are built to a budget (25,000 star destroyers and all that) whilst a one-off, not optimised for mass production ship can be detectably better. The Starviper, for example, was Prince Xizor saying "I have all the money in the known universe and I'd quite like my own fighter" - even the Galactic Empire would go bankrupt trying to field those things by the tens of thousands as a primary space superiority ship, but half-a-dozen custom-made ships for the boss' personal security detail is (just about) within Black Sun's resources.

Well, the Empire does produce TIE/D Defenders, which in my opinion is the best small ship in the game; it's certainly the most expensive one.

2 minutes ago, Robin De Banque said:

Very much so.

Sure, that was the case then. But in 2nd ed., they had a golden opportunity to fix it. Now they've tried to repair it by reducing the cost of the VT-49, but that doesn't address my main gripe.

Well, the Empire does produce TIE/D Defenders, which in my opinion is the best small ship in the game; it's certainly the most expensive one.

They did.

And Tarkin and the Emperor were planning to shut that right down again on cost grounds over Thrawn's objections even before the battle of Lothal, if I remember Rebels correctly.

But the Defender is a good example - the awesome super-aces (like Stele and Brath) or the politically connected ones (like Ryad) or both (Like Vader) move up from TIE/ln to TIE/x1 and TIE/D.

The Decimator is the capital ship equivalent of the TIE/ln - it's a lightweight patrol ship that the Imperial Navy can use for jobs which don't rate a capital ship. The warship captain equivalents of the fighter pilots like Stele and Ryad are commanding Corvettes, Cruisers and Destroyers.

I put this on the table last night,

RAC - TS, Tua, Vader, Hotshot Gunner 110

Whisper - Juke, Adv Sensors, Fifth Bro, Stealth Device

It's designed to strip an entire lists' worth of tokens, flew it against a double brobots + palob list, and even with the token stacks they generate, some proper range control and kiting managed to make sure my target had 0 tokens by the time he fired, which meant my reinforce did a lot of work. Once I could trigger Tua, I continuously took target locks and reinforced for fully modified shots.

Takeaways: Whisper still does whisper things and is really good. Decimators are better with the points adjustments, felt like a very powerful list, just need to properly kite and plan obstacle placement/future turns so that you get obstructed shots and don't have to rotate the turret.

This is my current list. It’s surprisingly effective. Use the title to bump into the back of your own ships with blue 1 fwd. Used to use 4 AP ties, but after points drop started this. It’s fun to hover in place with the decimator.

Outer Rim Patrol

(80) Rear Admiral Chiraneau
(10) Admiral Sloane
(1) Ruthless
(4) Dauntless
(3) Shield Upgrade
Points 98

(33) Baron of the Empire
(1) Crack Shot
Points 34

(33) Baron of the Empire
(1) Crack Shot
Points 34

(33) Baron of the Empire
(1) Crack Shot
Points 34

Total points: 200

Chiraneau and two Sigmas I think could be decent...

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (80)
Trick Shot (2)
Minister Tua (7)
Hotshot Gunner (7)
Hull Upgrade (2)

Sigma Squadron Ace (46)
Juke (5)

Sigma Squadron Ace (46)
Juke (5)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Here's what I'm trying. Use Oicunn to get the Phantoms fully modded Juked attacks, hopefully with a block to drop the defense dice by one.

“Whisper” (54)
Juke (5)

Sigma Squadron Ace (46)
Juke (5)

Captain Oicunn (78)
Intimidation (3)
Grand Moff Tarkin (6)
Tactical Officer (2)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Scum and Villainy will always have better gear than standard army. A standard piece of army/navy is just that a standard piece of gear.

The examples throughout history are too numerous to account for. The Hind, The Panzer, the mounted heavy Calvary. All head to head would destroy its standard enemy.

Thus the cheaper specialized defense, the YT-2400, the disposable rocket launcher, the swarm of Bradley, the single shot musket, the long a$! stick with pointy end.

Rebels being scum with matching uniform and ethos.

Although personally one my biggest disappointment in X-Wing 1.0 and 2.0 is lack of effectiveness in battle for the old Deci, I think of her like 40k Lemun Russ or Baneblade but she acts like a Rhino at best.

RAC/Whisper just went 5-0 and won the wave championship I was at yesterday.