54 minutes ago, kris40k said:

The  Trick   Shot vs Heroic was an interesting conversation. 

Yes! I kinda agree with Kevin, though he never did the necessary math for trickshot. It ends up to (allegedly, I haven't checked) conditional 31% vs the 10% or so for heroic. But the latter is on every attack, several times per turn. The former for trickshot once per turn, and not every turn.

I definitely disagre with him on heroic for an awing, who is often dead if blanked out.

2 hours ago, Koing907 said:

Ugh. Is there a transcript or something?

Anything by @Oldpara or @Biophysical on page two would be a good start. I'm starved for meta discussion on Hyperspace.

When it came to the Hyperspace bit, the only thing I didn't care for was Dee's falsetto voice. I mean, WTF was that supposed to be, anyhow? Same words in a normal tone, I've got zero issue. Specifically, they couched their preference for Hyperspace in a top-tournament context, and that folks playing casually are able to do whatever they want.

//

3 hours ago, kris40k said:

The Trick Shot vs Heroic was an interesting conversation.

As an Imperial player, I run Trick Shot a lot as filler because Ruthless doesn't fit well in many unique/ace lists like how Heroic or Selfless may slot in easily. While I love Trick Shot as it basically says, "I get to use the obstacles defensively, and you don't" if I had the option to take Heroic over TS as my default "whelp, don't have need of a specific Talent on this ship soo..." card I would in a hearbeat for the 1pt insurance against variance with more expensive unique pilots.

I would expect to see TS go up to 2 pts in the points balance pass so its not an auto-include.

I'm personally hoping for a Trick Shot price increase.

I figure Trick Shot is easier to trigger for most ships which take it than Predator, and adding an extra die is better than a reroll. If it's easier and it's more powerful, it shouldn't be cheaper.

//

Heroic is really fairly priced. If you look at the number of evades added per defense per point cost, it's actually really similar to Lone Wolf on an X-Wing or A-Wing, or similar to the evades and hits added by Predator & Elusive together on an A-Wing

• Red Dice
  • 3 Dice: 1.5625% chance. (1/64)
    • Given the average results from 3 red dice, that means this 0.  0234 = (1.5*1/64) extra damage to a 3-dice attack without focus, or 0.035 (2.25*1/64) damage with focus.
    • A single reroll without focus adds 0.438 damage, or 0.434 damage with focus. 
    • So Heroic is about 1/20th to 1/12th as good as Predator. 1/16th by Harmonic mean. 
  • 2 Dice: 6.25% chance. (1/16)
    • So Heroic adds 0.0625 damage without focus, 0.09375  damage with focus.
    • The single-reroll would add 0.375 without focus, or 0.328 with focus.
    • Without focus, this is 1/6th as good as Predator (1e, single reroll only), or with focus about 1/4th, so about 1/5th overall.
• Green Dice
  • 3 Dice: 5.27% chance to trigger
    • About 0.059 evades added without focus, or 0.100 evades with a focus token.
    • A single reroll (say, as granted by Elusive) on 3 dice adds about 0.355 evades without focus, or 0.472 with focus.
    • 1/5th to 1/6th as good as a single reroll
  • 2 Dice: about a 14.06% chance to trigger
    • About 0.105 evades added without focus, or 0.175 with a focus token.
    • A single reroll on 2 dice adds about 0.322 evades without focus, or 0.381 with a focus
    • 1/2 to 1/3rd as good as a single reroll, depending on focus used.

So Heroic is a scaled-down Lone Wolf. 1 point instead of 4, but close-ish to 1/4th the value. It gains, however, by the fact that it's "always on." There's no charge limit, there's no positional requirements like Lone Wolf or Predator, there's no recharging with red moves like Elusive. It just always (rarely) works.

There's something on PhilGC's X-Wing Hipster blog the other day. Heroic is an upgrade, not a tactic. Outmaneuver is a tactic. Get out of arc to get your benefit. Trick Shot is an extension of that. If you're good enough at triggering it, it gains value. The Trick Shot tactic is to be obstructed. That's not always a tactic which works, depending on the players involved. For serious Worlds Contenders, I'm sure it can work out a lot more. For me, I don't trust that I could consistently get obstructed shots twice or more per game. Heroic provides a small statistical benefit to your dice every time you roll. No special tactics involved.

//

I do think Kevin was a little sloppy in his Trick Shot math. Presuming two extra damage from two Trick Shot attacks is pretty lucky (focused red dice can blank, and your opponent can roll evades on their extra die from the obstruction). Not quite as extreme as someone presuming that Heroic adds 2 evades every time you blank out, but still.

Second, counting the benefit of the evade die as part of Trick Shot is perhaps unfair. Any player can get that extra green die from an obstructed shot, and the tactic of involving the rocks might be a good one, whether or not Trick Shot is present. As such, I think it's not really fair to attribute a defensive benefit to TS, when it doesn't directly impact defense dice at all.

8 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

X wing podcasts openly insulting the player base then having the balls to ask for money for it is one of the most amusing things about this whole community. It's been happening on and off for a long time.

That anyone donates a nickle is astonishing.

Patreon is a fascinating thing really. Suddenly everyone wants to get paid for their hobbies. It just so happens that x wing podcasters main contribution to the community is to openly ridicule it.

Anyone can sit around with their buddies and talk smack once a week. It's not a valuable service worth paying for.

This is not a mynock specific problem.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. It's a pity that some of the most well known X-Wing podcasts are have such a high amount of mockery, whining, and general annoying and unneeded noise.

I stopped listening to Krayts and Mynocks for this reason quite a long time ago, during the late dark days of 1.0.

I guess these guys are all very bright and enthusiastic for the game, but honestly listening to the bad jokes and boring trash talk (while digging for some nuggets of interesting ideas) gets very old, quite fast.

22 hours ago, Oldpara said:

Nope, Fenn isn't the same Fenn anymore

Hyperspace environment is infested with Fenn's counters: better I6 and generics that turns off his ship ability (Concordia Faceoff doesn't work against rear arc).

Very quickly players will realize how easy is to kill Fenn just jumping over him using 5 straight and killing him from the rear arc. (I suspect grimm time for Fangs, and drop in points during next points adjustments)

And Boba even without big points change (but - honestly - is there anyone who thinks that Boba/Han Gunner/Marauder will be untouched?) have to face 3 more I6 (Poe/QD/Midnight) and new super maneuverable I5 (Kylo). Not only more enemies to be affraid off, but also higher density of those threats as meta will be more narrow in Hyperspace due to limited number of ships, so I6 will be played more often.

But Boba anyway has some merit, while Fangs are almost dead at current cost.

Good points. Fangs have been quite underwhelming for me, too.

But I think Boba is still really strong ship with the Marauder/Han/Perceptive core, but needs a more reliable partner than Fenn..

I'm currently looking at Boba + Lando Falcon + shuttle instead of Boba + Fenn + shuttle.

Based on my Hyperspace games so far, Lando's Falcon title should trigger a LOT, and the whole Scum Falcon is a really cost-efficient ship..

On the Poe discussion ... I'm wondering how often Kevin chooses not to use Poe's ability. Because since his ability doesn't synergize with BB/BB-8, not using it is telegraphing a potential trigger of a BB action next round. (Or did I miss him outfitting Poe with Primed Thrusters?)

// On Heroic ... very well priced for what it does. I'm running multi-ship lists with Heroic (3-4 Heroics). With that number I find I usually get at least 1 evade result from a Heroic defense reroll per game. On a four ship list it means I paid 4 points for a Hull point -- that's a point cheaper than a Hull Upgrade on an Agi 2 ship. Sometimes it triggers twice in a game; occasionally it triggers on offense -- but those results are just gravy.

3 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

(Or did I miss him outfitting Poe with Primed Thrusters?)

No, he puts ferrosphere paint. He mentions his Poe is 89 points . He also says that black one is stapled to Poe.

You ask a good question, I'm also curious now. Sure, BB8 allows 2 actios before the maneuver. But just twice.

As soon as the charges are gone it doesn't matter. And the first 1-3 turns it also doesn't matter. So realistically, it is only a problem for very few turns, maybe?

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

You ask a good question, I'm also curious now. Sure, BB8 allows 2 actios before the maneuver. But just twice.

And just twice when you did not use Poe's ability (or more rarely, do a red action) in the round before ...

11 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

On the Poe discussion ... I'm wondering how often Kevin chooses not to use Poe's ability. Because since his ability doesn't synergize with BB/BB-8, not using it is telegraphing a potential trigger of a BB action next round. (Or did I miss him outfitting Poe with Primed Thrusters?)

// On Heroic ... very well priced for what it does. I'm running multi-ship lists with Heroic (3-4 Heroics). With that number I find I usually get at least 1 evade result from a Heroic defense reroll per game. On a four ship list it means I paid 4 points for a Hull point -- that's a point cheaper than a Hull Upgrade on an Agi 2 ship. Sometimes it triggers twice in a game; occasionally it triggers on offense -- but those results are just gravy.

He did mention he's "trained" himself to only rarely use Poe's ability (I believe he said only when absolutely necessary). That might allow what looks like a telegraphed use to trick an opponent when you do nothing with BB8...

15 minutes ago, Clutterbuck said:

He did mention he's "trained" himself to only rarely use Poe's ability (I believe he said only when absolutely necessary). That might allow what looks like a telegraphed use to trick an opponent when you do nothing with BB8...

It sounded like he is only willing to stress himself if he knows that he can get a good position in the next round AND there’s no way for his opponent to punish him for being predictable. If he can maintain his options and only needs to commit with perfect board knowledge, then he can take very calculated gambles. The training seems like it’s knowing how and when to commit, since keeping your BB charges plays serious mind games with your opponent.

I got the impression that this build might be the ‘healthy’ way to take away your opponents agency.

@Rytackle - super appreciated the Trick Shot discussion and adjusted my list choices after thinking through the arguments you guys went through.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

When it came to the Hyperspace bit, the only thing I didn't care for was Dee's falsetto voice. I mean, WTF was that supposed to be, anyhow? Same words in a normal tone, I've got zero issue. Specifically, they couched their preference for Hyperspace in a top-tournament context, and that folks playing casually are able to do whatever they want.

Dee was imitating @Tlfj200 imitating complaining players. He even said so at some point. Dee's default person being more acidic makes the delivery a bit harsher, but the point is to verbalize the counter argument in a way that makes it clear it is the weaker one. It's just a meme.

Making an insulting noise is how to make it clear the other side has the weaker position?

Think of the centuries of philosophy humanity could have saved itself from figuring out.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

No, he puts ferrosphere paint. He mentions his Poe is 89 points . He also says that black one is stapled to Poe.

You ask a good question, I'm also curious now. Sure, BB8 allows 2 actios before the maneuver. But just twice.

As soon as the charges are gone it doesn't matter. And the first 1-3 turns it also doesn't matter. So realistically, it is only a problem for very few turns, maybe?

Did he ever say what ships he was flying with this Poe? At one point I felt like he was implying that it was a 4 ship list, which would have to be 3 As point-wise I think.

He said at the start that he would be being evasive becasue he was working on a list and didn't want to leak it, but did confirm that his Poe was part of it.

19 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

Anything by @Oldpara or @Biophysical on page two would be a good start. I'm starved for meta discussion on Hyperspace.

There's not been enough events to really form a hyperspace meta to talk about. The first major event is, what, the qualifier at the Toronto system open in late feb? Since trials don't start until march.

9 hours ago, Mistborn_Jedi said:

Did he ever say what ships he was flying with this Poe? At one point I felt like he was implying that it was a 4 ship list, which would have to be 3 As point-wise I think.

I'm assuming it's something pretty close to this Triple A Poe

It sounded like he had a small bid which is why that Green isn't Zari along with his mentions of trick shot and that if trick shot points go up, it screws up his current build.

10 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Making an insulting noise is how to make it clear the other side has the weaker position?

Think of the centuries of philosophy humanity could have saved itself from figuring out.

The SpongeBob Method has replaced the Socratic Method.

17 minutes ago, kris40k said:

The SpongeBob Method has replaced the Socratic Method.

iT's A lEgItiMaTe StRaTeGy

14 hours ago, drjkel said:

Dee was imitating @Tlfj200 imitating complaining players. He even said so at some point. Dee's default person being more acidic makes the delivery a bit harsher, but the point is to verbalize the counter argument in a way that makes it clear it is the weaker one. It's just a meme.

Again, I have literally no problem with acidic Dee. All the times he's snapped at Farmer over statistical inference? I'm here for it.

But just because something is a meme, an attempt at a joke, doesn't mean it lands. It didn't land with me, I didn't find it funny, and I'm just saying that.

I don't like that rhetorical device either, but I put it down to cultural differences. I can still recognize it for what it is though.

@Rytackle I personally thought it was a great episode. I'm incredibly hard to offend, in fact I sometimes forget that myself and do a lot of offending of others. I do you think you were a bit out of character near the beginning of the cast but I would not say it was offensive or wrong. And you are right @Brunas and his crew do so much for the community out of their own pocket that, personalities aside, it would be a shame to not listen or pay attention to the input they have. I'm personally a big fan of the Krayt cast because even when all they do is play video games you eventually learn something from them.

That episode was one of the best and most informative pod cast episode across the majors since the Krayt's deep dive into the meta. Period.

The hyperspace vs extended debate is now just a loaded conversation that has no end. I roll my eyes at it the same way people roll their eyes at most other polarizing nonsensical circular subjects. It's hard not make fun of people on either side who are so elitist they are unwilling to give an inch in either direction.

Myself personally. I just wanna push plastic spaceships around man. I don't care which format.

The podcasting community does a lot for the X-wing community at large. from hosting big events like Outrider, Mynock Open, Krayt Cup, Gold Squadron Classic... 1.0 objective format creation, Gold Sq live streams, the Krayt Listener Series, the new Mynock flight academy series... and they do it as a labor of love! It's a lot of work to do these things. There are tons of 'cast out there, it's upto you to decide if you want to listen. Just like the hyperspace vs extended. it's your choice to participate or not.

oh and Ryan, you shouldn't apologize.

So is this the Mynock edition of the GSP Appreication Thread?