2 minutes ago, svelok said:
A reload action would let you reload other stuff too. They could never give a CIS ship both a missile and a torp/device slot without allowing it access to reload. It would just be extremely design limiting for no particular reason.
I want to believe that they're doing it properly and the reason for it is a good one. But experience suggests it's not.
The reason shells are worded so is you can still shoot your main while reloading, I take that over reload action any day. You take this on your low initiative platform, so have no idea if you will have anything in your arc. so you reload, and if anything goes into your arc even better.
40 minutes ago, Redblock said:The reason shells are worded so is you can still shoot your main while reloading, I take that over reload action any day.
Unfortunately you still get the disarm token from reloading, even if it's not via the Reload action itself. From the FAQ, p 15:
QuoteRELOAD (reload icon)
Pilots can reload to rearm ordnance tubes by moving around ammo on their ship. When a ship performs the (reload icon) action, it reloads by performing the following steps:
- Choose one of the ship’s equipped (torpedo), (missile), or (device) upgrade cards that has fewer active (charges) than its charge limit.
- That card recovers one (charge).
- The ship gains one disarm token.
Additionally:
- If an ability instructs a player to reload, this is different than performing a (reload icon) action. A ship that reloads without performing the action can still perform the (reload icon) action this round.
If I'm reading it correctly, reloading still covers steps 1-3 even if it's not the reload action itself.
Dang, you might be correct, curse FFG and their everchanging templating. Perform reload action only for this card would be much more intuitive, but longer.
Edited by Redblock1 hour ago, Jarval said:Unfortunately you still get the disarm token from reloading, even if it's not via the Reload action itself. From the FAQ, p 15:
If I'm reading it correctly, reloading still covers steps 1-3 even if it's not the reload action itself.
How so? Step 1-3 refer to what happens ' When a ship performs the (reload icon) action'. There's no provision in the rule regarding what happens when a ship reloads without performing the Reload action except that ' it' s different than performing a (reload icon) action'.
24 minutes ago, LordBlades said:How so? Step 1-3 refer to what happens ' When a ship performs the (reload icon) action'. There's no provision in the rule regarding what happens when a ship reloads without performing the Reload action except that ' it' s different than performing a (reload icon) action'.
In which case, what does reloading do, as there would be no rules text for it at all? I think the "it reloads by performing the following steps" part is key, as it applies to all instances of reload, not just the action as far as I can see.
4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:I want to believe that they're doing it properly and the reason for it is a good one. But experience suggests it's not.
I agree, but it could also be to prevent reloading of homing missiles. Having a swarm that can inflict auto damage could have potant effects.
2 hours ago, Jarval said:In which case, what does reloading do, as there would be no rules text for it at all? I think the "it reloads by performing the following steps" part is key, as it applies to all instances of reload, not just the action as far as I can see.
Reloading something FFG needs to define and likely will by the time wave 3 is released.
Going back to the existing rule however, if it's meant to be a general rule, why have the first part of the sentence? Why say ' When a ship performs the (reload icon) action, it reloads by performing the following steps' instead of just 'A ship reloads by performing the following step s' if it's meant to also cover reloading without using the Reload action?
1 minute ago, LordBlades said:Reloading something FFG needs to define and likely will by the time wave 3 is released.
Going back to the existing rule however, if it's meant to be a general rule, why have the first part of the sentence? Why say ' When a ship performs the (reload icon) action, it reloads by performing the following steps' instead of just 'A ship reloads by performing the following step s' if it's meant to also cover reloading without using the Reload action?
Because this is the first time Reload has been available as not-an-action.
I'd assume it will be edited to have the same treatment as coordinate, boost, barrel roll, etc, and honestly, I suspect the only reson it doesn't is because reload hasn't been used outside the action before now.
The only place it could have been is Quinn Jast, and they didn't do it there for reasons best known to them.
There's something kind of thematic, however, in a weapon which recharges itself. While it might be cleaner to give a reload action, it's also not as fluffy, the fluff doesn't hurt anything, and might have potential benefits down the road with not limiting design space on other munitions carriers.
4 hours ago, Jarval said:Unfortunately you still get the disarm token from reloading, even if it's not via the Reload action itself. From the FAQ, p 15:
If I'm reading it correctly, reloading still covers steps 1-3 even if it's not the reload action itself.
This seems correct to me.
Consider, the only real difference between "perform a ↔️ [barrel roll symbol] action" and "perform a barrel roll" is whether or not it counts as the same action, for later effects. For "word"-Reload and the 🔄 [Reload symbol] Action to have the same function makes sense.
Just now, thespaceinvader said:The only place it could have been is Quinn Jast, and they didn't do it there for reasons best known to them.
One cool thing about Quinn is that he can recharge things other than missiles and torpedoes. A neat-but-I-don't-want-to-spend-this-many-points-on-a-f'ing-Scyk build could get extra charges on Crack Shot or Stealth Device or Afterburners.
But it'd almost surely have been simpler for "At the start of the engagement phase, you may perform a 🔄 [Reload Symbol] action."
Yeah, I'd give up the ability to reload other upgrade for some standardisation.
Or, you could say 'at the start of the engagement phase you may [reload] (or 'perform a r[reload] action, if you wanted it to not work when stressed), if you do, you may reload any upgrade, not just [missile], [torp], and [device]' and keep both the standardisation AND the enhancement.
17 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:Because this is the first time Reload has been available as not-an-action.
I'd assume it will be edited to have the same treatment as coordinate, boost, barrel roll, etc, and honestly, I suspect the only reson it doesn't is because reload hasn't been used outside the action before now.
The only place it could have been is Quinn Jast, and they didn't do it there for reasons best known to them.
They are mentioning reloading without using the reload action just below, which makes me believe it' s not an oversight, but that it's FFG's intent for some reload abilities to work differently.
38 minutes ago, LordBlades said:They are mentioning reloading without using the reload action just below, which makes me believe it' s not an oversight, but that it's FFG's intent for some reload abilities to work differently.
They mention the same below Barrel Roll, for example, don’t they?
2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Yeah, I'd give up the ability to reload other upgrade for some standardisation.
Or, you could say 'at the start of the engagement phase you may [reload] (or 'perform a r[reload] action, if you wanted it to not work when stressed), if you do, you may reload any upgrade, not just [missile], [torp], and [device]' and keep both the standardisation AND the enhancement.
But that's the thing about Quinn Jast. You can field him without any munitions, just with some other refreshable stuff like talents like Crackshot or maybe an Afterburner (he would like to have one for mobility, but it's pretty costly such a fragile chassis). You are no longer forced to put so many points in munitions on him like you were in 1st edition. If he is reduced to purely reload of ammo, he is not worth it at all, then he would need to be much cheaper*).
[Edit] So definitely your second suggestion.[/edit]
*) actually he is still too expensive. Unlike slamming gunboats he has problems with the disarm on refreshing (esp of munitions), cannot run away to refresh at a distance (in order to not be just shot down) and then slam into the fight again.
Edited by Managarmr40 minutes ago, Managarmr said:But that's the thing about Quinn Jast. You can field him without any munitions, just with some other refreshable stuff like talents like Crackshot or maybe an Afterburner (he would like to have one for mobility, but it's pretty costly such a fragile chassis). You are no longer forced to put so many points in munitions on him like you were in 1st edition. If he is reduced to purely reload of ammo, he is not worth it at all, then he would need to be much cheaper*)
*) actually he is still too expensive. Unlike slamming gunboats he has problems with the disarm on refreshing (esp of munitions), cannot run away to refresh at a distance (in order to not be just shot down) and then slam into the fight again.
Did... you read the second part of my post?
Wait. Are people actually arguing that using an action to reload wouldn't follow the same process as performing a reload action? Is that a thing that's happening?
32 minutes ago, Maui. said:Wait. Are people actually arguing that using an action to reload wouldn't follow the same process as performing a reload action? Is that a thing that's happening?
Of course they are.
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:Did... you read the second part of my post?
Yes.
But I should have definitely answered a bit more clearly.
Fixed now.
Proxied some CIS tonight with made up points.
Vulture Droids are extremely cash money.
34 minutes ago, svelok said:Proxied some CIS tonight with made up points.
Vulture Droids are extremely cash money.
What kind of setup did you have? (how many points was everything)
38 minutes ago, svelok said:Proxied some CIS tonight with made up points.
Vulture Droids are extremely cash money.
Curious as well. I take it you mean they're good.
5 hours ago, Matanui3 said:What kind of setup did you have? (how many points was everything)
I assumed Precise Hunters with Energy Shells were at most 34 points, and Maul with Kraken plus some random generic upgrades was at most under 100, both of which seemed very conservative and therefore pretty safe. (Compare: Boba loaded down at around 100 and barrage bombers at 34.) So I ran three Hunters and Maul. They haven't spoiled the Infiltrator's cloaking yet so I lived without.
It was a very fun list.
5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:Curious as well. I take it you mean they're good.
Yeah they're great.
They're a ship that gets less predictable when they fly into a dense asteroid field, which is a wild paradigm shift.
Kraken is very good and their dial is neat. Bit of a learning curve, they fly weird.