Please! I don't know how many dang threads reference this other game in some way, shape, or form.
"Well, Magic does it this way."
"If it were more like Magic..."
"Let's get a room full of Magic judges..."
No. Stahp. This isn't Magic. You want Magic? Play Magic.
Magic is the biggest card game. It's understandable that people will compare the two.
That said, I like this game because it is not trying to be another magic clone.
So we should compare it to Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh, then, right?
4 hours ago, twinstarbmc said:Please! I don't know how many dang threads reference this other game in some way, shape, or form.
It's a 1v1 battling card game designed by Richard Garfield in an attempt to fix some of the issues he has with certain aspects of Magic. An argument could be made that it doesn't require any comparison to another game, but if it's going to be compared to anything, isn't Magic the most likely candidate?
31 minutes ago, CaptainIxidor said:So we should compare it to Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh, then, right?
Just now, dperello said:It's a 1v1 battling card game designed by Richard Garfield in an attempt to fix some of the issues he has with certain aspects of Magic. An argument could be made that it doesn't require any comparison to another game, but if it's going to be compared to anything, isn't Magic the most likely candidate?
I don't think comparing it to Magic is the problem. I think assuming that Keyforge should try to emulate Magic is the problem. Magic is this horrendously complex money pit that can be very challenging for new players to really embrace. Keyforge is a game where $10 and some skill could get you to the top table at any tournament.
I don't think we necessarily need "a room full of Magic judges to fix the rules". Realistically and practically speaking, there are only a small handful of items where we have real questions. I'm confident those will be addressed via official rules reference update sooner than later. In the interval, any event organizer can make a judgment call if two players can't decide... which is something I've not seen happen over the more or less ten events I've been to over multiple locations, including PAX.
I play both and I'm SO glad this isn't magic.
If it was we'd all be playing Untamed/Dis/logos, running the same combo (Restinguntus, Control the weak, Dominator bauble and Witch of the eye) all those cards would cost a ton of money and people would hate playing against that deck.
3 hours ago, KrisWall said:Magic is this horrendously complex money pit that can be very challenging for new players to really embrace.
Psst, your bias is showing.
Your post would be a much better argument if you left that line out.
Magic has 60 cards, about 24 on average will be lands, thus a Magic deck has 36 cards that aren't land. Is this a strange coincidence or what?
Magic is completely different, you tap things in Magic, in KeyForge it all gets exhausted. No idea why my Library of Babble gets tired but it does all the same.
That being said, the structure of Keyforge specifically avoids certain facets of Magic, by virtue of the fact that their common designer has designed them to be different in these areas :
15 hours ago, Krashwire said:Psst, your bias is showing.
Your post would be a much better argument if you left that line out.
I wasn't really trying to hide the bias. I played Magic for years back when it was a new game. At one point, I sold my entire collection. Several times since, I've tried to get back into it, but it's really not a game that is friendly to new or returning players. It's very complex, it's very expensive and it almost requires you to netdeck and search out hard to find cards on the secondary market.
I actively like that Keyforge is entirely different. When people say that Keyforge needs to be more like Magic, my reaction is "please God no... Magic is horrible. Don't ruin this new game by making it more like Magic."
15 hours ago, Krashwire said:Psst, your bias is showing.
Your post would be a much better argument if you left that line out.
@twinstarbmc Cute, but inaccurate. I was not adding my own bias to the post. I did not indicate how I feel about magic. The notion that Magic is '... this horrendously complex money pit...' is opinion based on bias rather than fact.
I did not indicate if I feel that way or not, as it is an opinion that weakens his argument. You are just assuming you know what my opinion is.
1 hour ago, Krashwire said:@twinstarbmc Cute, but inaccurate. I was not adding my own bias to the post. I did not indicate how I feel about magic. The notion that Magic is '... this horrendously complex money pit...' is opinion based on bias rather than fact.
I did not indicate if I feel that way or not, as it is an opinion that weakens his argument. You are just assuming you know what my opinion is.
In that case...
19 hours ago, Krashwire said:Your post would be a much better argument if you left that line out.
Your post would be much better if it addressed the topic at hand in a constructive manner, rather than focusing on your perceived bias of an individual who was actually addressing the topic. Your entire reply was a personal attack (admittedly, as is mine).
PS - Please do indicate your opinions of M:TG, so I'll know whether you're upset because I was wrong, or upset because I was right.
58 minutes ago, Krashwire said:@twinstarbmc Cute, but inaccurate. I was not adding my own bias to the post. I did not indicate how I feel about magic. The notion that Magic is '... this horrendously complex money pit...' is opinion based on bias rather than fact.
I did not indicate if I feel that way or not, as it is an opinion that weakens his argument. You are just assuming you know what my opinion is.
Looks like the Magic Comprehensive Rules currently ring in at 199 pages. I'm not aware of any other card games with nearly as many rules. If you'd prefer, I'll replace horrendously complex with really, really, really (and maybe excessively) complex. I do consider potentially having to understand 199 pages of rules to be horrendous, but some might enjoy the challenge.
In terms of the game being a money pit, is it not? Can I go out today, spend $X and be set for the next year? Realistically, no. Being part of Magic requires an ongoing commitment if you want to participate in an average community, attend occasional events AND have a realistic chance of winning. The term money pit may have a negative connotation, but I don't think it's an opinion.
1 hour ago, KrisWall said:Looks like the Magic Comprehensive Rules currently ring in at 199 pages. I'm not aware of any other card games with nearly as many rules. If you'd prefer, I'll replace horrendously complex with really, really, really (and maybe excessively) complex. I do consider potentially having to understand 199 pages of rules to be horrendous, but some might enjoy the challenge.
In terms of the game being a money pit, is it not? Can I go out today, spend $X and be set for the next year? Realistically, no. Being part of Magic requires an ongoing commitment if you want to participate in an average community, attend occasional events AND have a realistic chance of winning. The term money pit may have a negative connotation, but I don't think it's an opinion.
20+ Year Magic Player here.
Can Magic be a "money pit"? Yes and no. It is something you can throw money at until you are blue in the face, but you can do that with any hobby, even Keyforge. Magic is also one of the best investments I have made over time and I don't regret any of it.
What do you need to get started for Magic? A deck and a friend.
What do you need to get started for Keyforge? A deck and a friend.
How much do you need to spend to get started on Magic? As much as you want to get the entertainment you seek. Wanna play with all commons, go for it and play Pauper. Wanna play your favorite tribe, go to Gatherer, type in the creature type and go buy the singles you need. Wanna play casually with your friends, grab a Planeswalker deck or a Deck Builder's Toolkit for $20. Want to play limited and build your collection, drafts are between $10-15 for normal sets. Wanna find that sweet card combination that you are really interested in...then be reasonable with your spending and learn to trade. Don't just open boosters hoping to get what you want when there is a secondary market that is more reasonably priced than you may have heard.
How much do you need to spend to get started on Keyforge? As much as you want to get the entertainment you seek. Wanna explore new decks at an event, pay $10 and get a new deck. Wanna find that sweet card combination that you are really interested in...then be reasonable with your spending and learn to trade. Don't just open boosters hoping to get what you want when there is a secondary market that is more reasonably priced than you may have heard.
As for the Comprehensive Rules, yeah it is a lot to take in, but you are not expected to know it unless you are playing in events where those rules matter. Not even judges are expected to know it inside and out, but it is kind of fun when you do learn corner cases that pop up because there are over 16,000 individual cards. Even then, those corner cases are very unlikely to actually pop up in any games that matter.
I agree with people that use Magic as a reference point. It was the first and still longest running for a reason. Many games have launched from the basics of the game and I was really psyched when I heard about Keyforge being designed by Richard Garfield because his game has entertained me for all these years, and still going strong. No one is saying that Keyforge needs 200+ pages of rules, but there is framework available to make things easier for everyone. Keyforge Compendium does a really great job of being similar to Gatherer. You can look up cards and see FAQ similar to the Oracle text and FAQ of Magic cards.
I have seen threads in here regarding people worried about how they are going to beat other people they know that bought 100 decks when the game came out. How is that any different than people complaining they can't win an event because they couldn't afford "the perfect manabase" for Magic? There is something for everyone and that is what keeps Magic alive. I got into the game for free, I have spent thousands of dollars over the years (my mom's money, my money from my first job, financial aid, you name it and it probably got turned into Magic), and now that I have reached a point in my life where I am looking for a house, I have flipped a good portion of my collection into a down payment when I find one.
Since Keyforge came out, I want to bring the community that I built around Magic with me into this new game. I bought around 30 decks and only kept six for myself, but I know how fun it is to receive something new and give out decks to those interested in learning. What they spend on it after that point is none of my concern. Maybe the buy one more deck to give to a friend, maybe they buy a box in search of that perfect house combination they like, or maybe they spend $1000 on a deck in the secondary market with double Horsemen, 2x Phase Shift, and a Library Access.
What it basically boils down to is not everything is for everyone, but there is something for those are genuinely interested. There is no need to "yuk" someone's "yum", as the saying goes. If you don't like Magic, that is great. There are players all around the world doing what they like, spending what they like, and no one is forcing them to do anything. I for one love both games and I feel fortunate that there is something like Keyforge for me to play while I take a step away from Magic until my daughter is old enough to understand the basics in a couple years. If she chooses to play.
2 hours ago, twinstarbmc said:Your entire reply was a personal attack...
This is not at all accurate. There is nothing about my post that was an attack. I only pointed out something that weakened an otherwise well reasoned post. I did not indicate anything about his character. I made a joke about the piece of the post I felt was a distraction from an otherwise great comment on an emotionally charged topic. (People tend to be passionate about the 'big dog' in any given subject (card games and MTG in this case).
In no way did I indicate his bias was wrong or harmful, only that it was a detraction from a well reasoned post. Perhaps the nuance was lost being in text rather than verbal.
2 hours ago, twinstarbmc said:(admittedly, as is mine).
Agreed, as was your followup.
2 hours ago, twinstarbmc said:PS - Please do indicate your opinions of M:TG, so I'll know whether you're upset because I was wrong, or upset because I was right.
No, and neither as I am not upset at all. My personal opinion on MTG is not relevant to the discussion. However I suspect you are not actually interested in my opinion...
I do find it interesting that you have managed to weave together an ad hominem attack with a false dilemma/false dichotomy in so few words. This would be an interesting one to bring up in a logic class. But I digress.
3 hours ago, KandyKidZero said:I agree with people that use Magic as a reference point. It was the first and still longest running for a reason. Many games have launched from the basics of the game and I was really psyched when I heard about Keyforge being designed by Richard Garfield because his game has entertained me for all these years, and still going strong. No one is saying that Keyforge needs 200+ pages of rules, but there is framework available to make things easier for everyone. Keyforge Compendium does a really great job of being similar to Gatherer. You can look up cards and see FAQ similar to the Oracle text and FAQ of Magic cards.
You should be able to add specific card rulings to the app. Go to your deck (simple as scan the QCode), tap on the card in question and read a few little FAQ entries.
Heck throw in card recognition and you just aim your camera at your card!
14 hours ago, KrisWall said:I actively like that Keyforge is entirely different. When people say that Keyforge needs to be more like Magic, my reaction is "please God no... Magic is horrible. Don't ruin this new game by making it more like Magic."
And I too like the differences. But that doesn't mean I should ignore the similarities in their basic structure, pretend they don't exist, and resist drawing the correct conclusions that derive from importing the overlapping concepts.
I like the game as it is. The FAQ could certainly do with an update, but apart from referring to a "new object", every clarification we've seen so far is just an explanation of the existing rules and as such I feel the rules are fine. Apparently there are people who feel the need to write everything out in a 200 page document, and by all means, knock yourself out. Personally I have no interest in a game like that though and play Keyforge because it is lighthearted, casual and fun.
I don't think any party in this argument is "right" or "wrong", it's an entirely subjective discussion. Some people (like me) love the simple, lighthearted fun that is Keyforge and some feel they need to have (close to) every possible interaction accounted for in order to have fun. I guess it's up to FFG to decide what they want Keyforge to be, but the sad thing is they can never satisfy everyone. Either they keep it simple like it is and lose players who feel the rules as is are wholly inadequate, or they adapt a "Magic-like" rules document of 100+ pages and lose players like me who have no interest whatsoever in a game like that.
4 hours ago, Palpster said:I like the game as it is. The FAQ could certainly do with an update, but apart from referring to a "new object", every clarification we've seen so far is just an explanation of the existing rules and as such I feel the rules are fine. Apparently there are people who feel the need to write everything out in a 200 page document, and by all means, knock yourself out. Personally I have no interest in a game like that though and play Keyforge because it is lighthearted, casual and fun.
I don't think any party in this argument is "right" or "wrong", it's an entirely subjective discussion. Some people (like me) love the simple, lighthearted fun that is Keyforge and some feel they need to have (close to) every possible interaction accounted for in order to have fun. I guess it's up to FFG to decide what they want Keyforge to be, but the sad thing is they can never satisfy everyone. Either they keep it simple like it is and lose players who feel the rules as is are wholly inadequate, or they adapt a "Magic-like" rules document of 100+ pages and lose players like me who have no interest whatsoever in a game like that.
I agree wholeheartedly.
17 hours ago, Krashwire said:No, and neither as I am not upset at all. My personal opinion on MTG is not relevant to the discussion. However I suspect you are not actually interested in my opinion...
Claiming someone's bias to be detrimental to the discussion, while maintaining your own to be irrelevant, seems a bit hypocritical to me.
17 hours ago, Krashwire said:I do find it interesting that you have managed to weave together an ad hominem attack with a false dilemma/false dichotomy in so few words. This would be an interesting one to bring up in a logic class. But I digress.
Awe, Latin! How quaint. And thank you, I tend towards fewer words when I can. "Brevity is the soul of wit," after all.
16 hours ago, Amanal said:You should be able to add specific card rulings to the app. Go to your deck (simple as scan the QCode), tap on the card in question and read a few little FAQ entries.
Heck throw in card recognition and you just aim your camera at your card!
At the very least, we can add notes for card rulings now if nothing else. I'm not saying it's what it should be, but it's something.
4 hours ago, CaptainIxidor said:At the very least, we can add notes for card rulings now if nothing else. I'm not saying it's what it should be, but it's something.
Adding card rulings to each deck?
the reality I find with cards games is this:
For the game to grow, thrive and stay alive invariably it needs a healthy competitive scene to drive players to be better and invest more time and energy into the game. this typically requires a rules set as comprehensive and air tight as it can possibly be so as not to cause ongoing issues with conflicting rulings form different events based on untrained judges personal perception of an interaction rather than a clarified rulebook.
As a casual player you don't need to know the comprehensive rulebook, heck most competitive MTG players have never read the comprehensive MTG rules, they will occasionally reference them though.
regardless of weather you are casual or competitive a good tight rules structure benefits everyone.
Also as a casual player that buys a few decks then never spends anymore money on the game, well the sad reality is they aren't FFG's target market because they are not going to be spending more money on the game in the long run.
FFG have managed to cleverly entice competitive players to buy many more decks than they might have otherwise bought, not to mention that should a deck ever become too powerful it can be laden with so many chains that it becomes a bad deck, further incentivizing the player to buy more decks. These are the players that FFG want to pander to because they buy the product.
The number one rule you will find for any competitive player of a ccg is: do not buy booster packs, buy singles.
Casual players buy packs, and that is where publishers make their money from.
Keyforge isn’t much different probably. If you want to be serious about the competitive side of this game you go online and search for the most busted deck out there, but FFG won’t see anything from the hundreds of dollars you’ve spent on it
So casual players very much are the target market.