51 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

"Predict" is almost always a bad gamble; it is predictable and you lose your turn. The opponent will always find something to do that is worthwile while you did nothing and you have 25% chance of picking the right stance. Plus, void stance totally negates it.

[Note - this is not me saying it's good!]

I rarely see it as a 25% guess - more a 100% certainty of "you're not using [specific stance I don't want you in*]'.

Maybe you might be able to play some clever mind games if you're close enough to composure limits that the 4 strife might net a finishing blow), but that's probably a more niche use, because it's easy to lose the mind games, and you could have done that with fire opportunities (easily in part, less easily - but in full - if you can roll *** in one go).

You're right it's not especially good, because trading my action for yours is still mostly useless. Where it has potential, if anywhere, is in water stance (because I can still do something else at the same time). Free actions don't have to be anywhere near as good to justify their existence.

By comparison, the fact that you can't centre in anything but void stance is one of (many) problems.

* earth if I want to try a strike-with-**, air if I think a finishing blows is coming up before your next go, water if you don't currently have your blade drawn, fire if I think you have heartpiercing strike, etc, etc.

15 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

this ability should never be usable in duels

I like how the Lion Clan finally has a highly competent duelist school whose gimmick is not "I chop harder than the others" and require actual tactics to defeat their opponent. It is very fitting and thematic while also unique - one of the best Dueling Techs in my opinion.

If they fix predict and center, ill be happy.

Right now, it is broken.

All the fancy "options on a miss" are still useless if your opponent draw and crit you on his next turn. Which decent duelists (ring 3, skill 3) will have no issue doing (or at least, the gamble is in their favor).

And no duelist is single trick enough to be hindered by a predict action, and they can still win the next initiative, making your predict even more costly.

Center is an utter joke.

While I appreciate @WHW efforts to come up with cool gameplay, he doesn't fix the core issue.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

I like how the Lion Clan finally has a highly competent duelist school whose gimmick is not "I chop harder than the others" and require actual tactics to defeat their opponent. It is very fitting and thematic while also unique - one of the best Dueling Techs in my opinion.

Debatable. I don't like it nor think it was intended (same as the hiruma ability) but it exists, its a glitch. You can embrace it.

Still doesn't fix the core issue of duel actions.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

[Note - this is not me saying it's good!]

I rarely see it as a 25% guess - more a 100% certainty of "you're not using [specific stance I don't want you in*]'.

Maybe you might be able to play some clever mind games if you're close enough to composure limits that the 4 strife might net a finishing blow), but that's probably a more niche use, because it's easy to lose the mind games, and you could have done that with fire opportunities (easily in part, less easily - but in full - if you can roll *** in one go).

Except that I've seen exactly that, multiple times, both me doing it to players and players to me.

That one fails to grok how to use it doesn't make it bad nor useless.

It's especially good for clashes in skirmishes or mass combat, where the NPC may be nearly strifed out already.

1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

Except that I've seen exactly that, multiple times, both me doing it to players and players to me.

That one fails to grok how to use it doesn't make it bad nor useless.

It's especially good for clashes in skirmishes or mass combat, where the NPC may be nearly strifed out already.

I call BS on that. Or you got lucky. the odds are NOT in favor of the one who predicts. And on top of the odds not being in your favor, you give a free turn to your opponent. In a clash the opponent could literally just pick void, strike you, and then stop the clash... that's how I'd grok you, with brains (if I was going second that is, if I was going first I would have strike you already).

easy groking. but alright, keep 'em coming @AK_Aramis ...!

maybe try to Center ?

crazy how you keep defending it at all cost. did you write the stuff ? is it just to push my button ? is it really your fair, thought out opinion ?

we will never know.

waiting for when you say that Center action is good design and that i'm failing to "grok" it.

What about the roleplay and storytelling value of these actions? (Predict and Center)

Not all actions are born equal and that's true for all encounter types. I have not theorycrafted like any of you did, so I don't know the statistical chances of each action/ability/technique, as well as the optimal builds and strategies. But I know that in the fantasy of duels, using mind games, studying your opponent, bluffing, and preparing your body and mind for an important strike are all staples that make these scenes awesome. Including failure of those actions and upsets in the predictable outcome (david vs goliath scenarios).

Also, even though mechanics might not always support it, I feel that the lore should be an important factor. But everyone is free to play the game however they like! If you calculated that the Seppun guard are the best duelists even though Lore says they would never duel (outside of skirmish challenges), while Kakita are bad duelists while the lore says they're the best, it's up to you to enforce the rules to achieve that. But also know that my GM would never punish us for favoring lore as part of our character, or let rules get in the way of good roleplay and storytelling. Together we would find a way to make a Kakita vs Mirumoto the awesome duel it should be, no matter what the theorycraft says!

Now, I understand that you may feel that the rule are badly implemented if your theorycrafting proves that they contradict the Lore, or if things are not balanced as you may like. It doesn't mean that you have the final answer for all situations, that others have to 100% agree with you, or that they can't offer intelligent counterpoints or examples from their experiences. No matter how much time you've spent studying the rules, especially dueling, everyone is always free (welcome even!) to present their unique angle and point of view.

You absolutely don't have to agree with me, Someone that does not agree with me posted very good arguments thus far in this very own thread. I WANT people's opinion (otherwise I wouldn't be here...) but random;

"Th  at one fails to grok how to use it doesn't make it bad nor useless.  It's especially good fo  r clashes in skirmishes or mass combat, wher  e the NPC may be nearly strifed out alr  eady. "

Is NOT an intelligent counter argument, it is simply a clumsy poke. (some people like to do that as much as I like to think about rules, which means, a lot). edit: not intelligent in a game design point of view, because this particular person might probably be more intelligent than me in everything else in life for all I know.

And sure the lore is part of the equation as it should be, and ultimately the GM will always find a way to compensate so that the players can live their fantasy.

Though, this is a rule forum, and we are discussing how the current duel rules have flaws (or not, depending on your opinion) and how they do not support the fantasy (iaijutsu techniques cannot crit and are being used as dmg dealing or opportunity rolling mechanic when the purpose of a iaijutsu duel is to do a critical strike. And, you have stuff like rising blade kata that enable you to crit compromised opponent but in a duel it will only be used in a finishing blow which is an auto crit anyway, making the "compromised opponent cannot defend" just... redundant and not well thought of, at least for duels (if not for everything else unless you start to use that with your secondary sheated weapon as a cheese technique during skirmishes)

Yes, you can always play your lore version of it and it can be fun! But that is not a reason for the rules to be that far off (predict and center and iaijutsu techniques.. mostly) so that they absolutely do not support the fantasy on top of being totally sloppy and clumsy...

Im not saying they should be overpowered, but at least they should not be push over mechanics that only exist if you accept a penalty for fluff (that you can represent with opportunity usage in a better way too). These are duel focused abilities and actions. they should be at least good options for dueling...

Maybe i'm simply having a Musashi take on it. I am critic of bad techniques (read: design).

Maybe i'm just looking for some allies so the devs feel at least slightly pressured to explain their intent or revise some stuff if they care about it enough (or have enough time/incentive to do so). Some other more technical players with good reputation also pointed out the fact that duels are broken, not really well thought off, under raw (on reddit or other places).

Sure, you can just "accept the rules as they are". But then you wouldn't come in a Rule discussion forum for the product to argue about them.

Its all part of being here. Really.

It is all part of having an interest in the rule design of this awesome, but glitchy, product.

I'd like to say that I greatly value the rules analysis that are being shared. As you may guess, I'm not really good at analyzing rules to classify what works or not, or to find the best combos, so I like to read all the good discussions, points and counter-points that all of you bring up. Thank you and please by all means continue to bring new information and new analysis to the table! That said, it's hard for me to take position on who is right, or to bring something myself because, as you say, "roleplaying" is not a good argument to bring to a rules discussion.

On another subject, English is not my first language and I most assuredly will not always grasp all the negative connotations of certain words or phrases. Maybe your 2 posts before mine were not entirely unwarranted, but it really doesn't matter who "started it" in the end.

One last thing, someone posted this follow-up question in the first page of this thread, which I think got buried and was not answered.

On 1/7/2019 at 9:10 PM, Neoquetzal said:

Does Water stance really allow you to draw and strike in the same turn?

"During your turn, you may perform one additional action that does not require a check. This action cannot share a type with another action you perform this turn."

As I understand it you take the additional action after your action. This additional action is the one that dont need a check.

I remember there is a place where we have an official ruling about this, that the additional action can come before or after, but I can't locate it.

13 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

It's especially good for clashes in skirmishes or mass combat, where the NPC may be nearly strifed out already.

12 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I call BS on that. Or you got lucky. the odds are NOT in favor of the one who predicts. And on top of the odds not being in your favor, you give a free turn to your opponent. In a clash the opponent could literally just pick void, strike you, and then stop the clash... that's how I'd grok you, with brains (if I was going second that is, if I was going first I would have strike you already).

@AK_Aramis The comment about it being good if the opponent is already high on strife is a good one. If a character is close to compromised already (which they may well be after several rounds of mass battle or skirmish) then you're more likely to be able to push them with any effect that causes strife. I can see it working if one party is already nearly compromised - though probably more in 'proper' duels where the other player kind of has to engage in the duel itself because the duel state doesn't 'expire' until one side gets battered.

@Avatar111 is correct that if your only goal is to survive the clash then bugger off, Void Stance and...well, anything...makes you immune to predict, and if you know your opponent has predicted for their action it's a 'safe' option. Furthermore, surviving a clash and refusing to continue it doesn't cost you in the way refusing one in the first place (Glory equal to command plus bonus successes, 3 panic and a void point for the other character) or accepting but then doing something else (10 honour, 5 glory) or getting someone else to intervene (10 honour for them). Of course, nothing stops the enemy player challenging you again next turn - nothing stops you just hiding in void stance either.

The one positive of that (for the challenger) is that you and the enemy leader are essentially taking safely neutralizing one another for the mass battle - whether that's a worthwhile trade depends on your relative value as commanders - if a TN1 check by a competent fighter lets them keep a high-rank-tactics-but-not-great-in-a-swordfight general out of the battle where they could be making assault actions on fortified positions like castle walls, that may be worth it.

That said, for most bushi, void is a pretty weak ring, so making them choose that ring is a small victory in and of itself. I wouldn't waste my turn on it in most stances, but I'd consider strike/predict as water stance actions - prepare shouldn't be needed (partway through a mass battle you'll have your weapon ready!) and if you're the one seeking the clash rather than the target presumably you don't need calming breath (much).

This is very much my view on predict. I've gone first, picked water stance (because...whatever. Maybe it's my best ring, maybe Flowing Water Strike, maybe I want a Water opportunity) and thumped you with an attack action (obviously not well enough to incapacitate or kill you, or the clash ends there with me winning and probably claiming a Cut Off The Head objective), then, seeing you're still standing, predicted.

In your turn, you know there's a predict-land-mine waiting, so you're going to pick your stance with a mind to avoiding it, and will probably succeed. You don't know what ring I've picked but you know it's probably either your highest rank one or one associated with a particularly good technique I know you have (Heartpiercing Strike or some strife-throwing technique like Pelting Hail). Therefore, you're going to pick either a.n.other 'normal' ring or void (which is often a weaker ring for Bushi anyway), and you'd be justly confident in not getting predicted.

From my perspective, though, If I've spent the 'free' water ring action to remove at least one ring die and one kept die from your attack roll relative to your best ring for your subsequent attack, that's not a bad deal in my mind, especially if your character is already a weaker swordsman than mine (which presumably you are or I wouldn't have challenged you)

9 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

And, you have stuff like rising blade kata that enable you to crit compromised opponent but in a duel it will only be used in a finishing blow which is an auto crit anyway, making the "compromised opponent cannot defend" just... redundant and not well thought of, at least for duels (if not for everything else unless you start to use that with your secondary sheated weapon as a cheese technique during skirmishes)

I get that as trying to make the iai techniques useful in both duels and skirmishes.

In a duel, Rising Blade is basically "TN-1 on finishing blows" and "You can perform a finishing blow from any stance without needing a prepare action to draw your blade first".

In a skirmish, 'cannot defend' makes it a means to do mini-finishing-blows in a skirmish which normally don't have that rule, and where heavily armoured opponents with big fatigue pools are not uncommon.

I also think crossing cut is far more useful in a skirmish (or duel to incapacitation) than a 'proper' iai duel, but then as far as I'm concerned, an Iaijutsu duel is just that even if neither player has a 'proper' iaijutsu technique - the length of a turn in different scenes (duel/skirmish/mass battle) is not equivalent, and in an iai duel, water stance draw/strike, or even draw one turn strike the next is still your character attempting an iaijutsu strike even if you don't have a technique with that name.

@Magnus Grendel There's also the issue that, if you challenge, and they go void stance, and you manage a crit, they now have a TN penalty on void or have reduced armor.

Once that's down, Predict gains a good bit more teeth, because TN penalties, as far as I can tell, also apply to critical reduction checks.

True, but they're probably not going to use void stance unless you've gone first.

If you challenge, and enter a clash that they don't want to be in:

If they go first they'll either take their best ring and give you their best swing anyway, or take Air stance to reduce your chances of hitting them during the one turn you get.

If they go second, and you've predicted, then they can take Void stance to avoid being compromised during the clash (which would mean a finishing blow). If they decline to continue the clash after standing their ground for one round, there's no penalty, and if you challenge them again, then you're back to a new clash during which they could potentially switch stance in the staredown if going second this time.

Unlike a 'proper' duel, it's hard to get two turns in a row without the enemy having a chance to change stance. That said, anything you can do to land a TN penalty and/or bleeding on a tactically gifted commander is worthwhile - getting Cut Off The Head via challenge actions is hard, but leaving the Fire 3/Tactics 3 Akodo Commander with bleeding and lightly wounded (Fire) is going to mess up the enemy army's plans something rotten.

You keep mentioning predict with water stance.

But predict is an attack/scheme action. What does that leave you to do with water? Draw?

So you can draw and predict?

Regarding challenge in a Clash, I'm not sure you can challenge someone again the next turn. I mean, sure it is not written "raw" but then you could challenge them, and they refuse lose their honor, and next turn you challenge them again? Imo (maybe that is an house rule) but if they refused or accepted, you cannot challenge them "again" in the same scene.

Predict is a bit more good against a wounded opponent, true. Not sure it is the action's saving grace but it is something.

13 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

What about the roleplay and storytelling value of these actions? (Predict and Center)

We tried to take a walk around this: Predict proved to be hard to narrate and had a tendency for comedic results, disrupting game play - it also didn't help that Opp resourcing was a much more interesting and rewarding mind game; on the other hand, Center was highly stressful to use because the Duel mechanics are simply not built for Centering but then you enter a Skirmish where Center would be absolutely awesome and you can't help but shed a drop of tear and take some IRL Strife.

When we wanted to do narrative Predict/Center-like stuff then we rather performed the Use Skill action.

Tho I had my Asako Loremaster character abuse Predict with Open Hand Style to win a duel, so there is at least one tactic that works perfectly if your GM is up to that (there are some questions about whether this combo works as per RAW).

Taking some IRL strife

sure thing, the opportunity spending does a better job at "mindgames" than the actual specifically tailored actions (which speaks to how predict/center are absolutely terribly designed).

And truly, unarmed offers some "possibilities" for duels. You always come up with insane stuff lol. Coiling serpent and the kiho that can bust a sword in one action? Haha That is a totally different ballgame though!

32 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Tho  I had  my Asako Loremaster character abuse Predict with Open Hand Style to win a duel, so the  re is  at least one tactic that works perfectly if your GM is   up to  that (there are some questions about whether this combo works as per RAW  ) 

What combo exactly? I hope your GM didn’t let you trigger the predict-induced Strife when you forcefully changed your opponent’s stance with open hand style

20 minutes ago, Franwax said:

What combo exactly? I hope your GM didn’t let you trigger the predict-induced Strife when you forcefully changed your opponent’s stance with open hand style

That's the questionable part. We did not know if Open Hand Style-ing your opponent into a the predicted stance triggers the Predict effect, but we just kinda rolled with it and decided that it indeed could.

So the combo is: Water Stance -> Predict -> Use Skill (Martial Arts (Unarmed)) -> Open Hand Style

Yeah.. I’m pretty sure both RAW and RAI disagree with that 😛 But it does make for a good story!

Are you also telling me you are using the martial arts [unarmed] neither as an attack nor scheme action so you could predict with it on top of the kata with water stance?

Poor GM. He got fooled so hard.

At this point, maybe your GM should have "centered".

8 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

On another subject, English is not my first language and I most assuredly will not always grasp all the negative connotations of certain words or phrases. Maybe your 2 posts before mine were not entirely unwarranted, but it really doesn't matter who "started it" in the end.

One last thing, someone posted this follow-up question in the first page of this thread, which I think got buried and was not answered.

I remember there is a place where we have an official ruling about this, that the additional action can come before or after, but I can't locate it.

english is not my first language also, so maybe I reacted too quickly.. but his argument felt very condescending. anyway, I don't hold grudges (hugs @AK_Aramis ).

about your question, the additional water stance action can come before OR after your actual action. I also remember someone said they asked and got an answer from the devs on that.

Yes, now i found it.

The additional action can be before or after.

12 hours ago, Neoquetzal said:

Yes, now i found it.

The additional action can be before or after.

Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread! I'm printing out a screenshot of that discussion, for when my GM inevitably tells me I can't draw then strike in water stance.

22 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Regarding challenge in a Clash, I'm not sure you can challenge someone again the next turn. I mean, sure it is not written "raw" but then you could challenge them, and they refuse lose their honor, and next turn you challenge them again? Imo (maybe that is an house rule) but if they refused or accepted, you cannot challenge them "again" in the same scene.

I'd probably still allow it in a mass battle, but less so in a skirmish.

1. If someone is repeatedly trying to hunt you down and challenge your general, send one of your own commanders to challenge them. That way they can't do anything else (assuming they're not going to forfeit honour) and you get your turn to yourself. Narratively speaking, it's a case of " You're the one who challenged me earlier, aren't you? Have you met Unfeasibly-Massive-Hida-San, my Hatamoto? "
2. A 'turn' in a mass battle is potentially between one and two hours, with one mass battle action representing a whole skirmish scene of "the assault on the walls of Kyuden Badguys" and then some. Challenging someone again 'next turn' is 'later that afternoon' and feels not unreasonable that you might issue a new challenge.

22 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

But predict is an attack/scheme action. What does that leave you to do with water? Draw?

Use skill or calming breath (or courtier's resolve if you have it), I guess. My mistake, though - for some reason I was mis-remembering it as just being a scheme action.

On 1/8/2019 at 11:33 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Fair point about 'temporary disadvantages'. It's easy enough to imagine a momentary disadvantage (the sun in your eyes? sword-hilt caught in the sleeve?) that could mess an opponent up for a turn or so, and Air is (amongst other things) supposed to represent close scrutiny of a specific individual.

Ah, that's what Aramoro did in the test of the Emerald Champion. And then Toturi went and inverted it, just to add insult to injury.