When you drop a bomb outside of the normal timing window, do you still spend the charge to drop it? The answer seems like "yes obviously" but I can't find anything in the rules reference to clearly confirm that...

This occurred to me because of the wording on all the bomb/mine cards, which say " During the System phase , you may spend 1 charge to drop...". I was looking at some lists with Edon Kappehl (MG-100 pilot) and Paige Tico (turret gunner) which let you drop bombs during the Activation phase or Combat phase - they both just say, "after [trigger], you may drop...". They don't say anything about charges or anything. So if we follow the wording on the bomb cards to spend a charge during the System phase, do we not spend a charge when we're not in that phase?

I get that spending the charge seems like the obvious implied RAI. It's just not explicit. Am I stupidly not seeing some line in the RRG that says "when a card instructs you to drop a device, spend the normal cost of that device"? (The Device section only talks about using the templates and stuff, nothing about the cards or charges.) I'm not going to try and use this technicality to actually go drop a bunch of free bombs in a casual match or tournament or anything, just trying to make sure I'm understanding the rules right and not missing something.

Posting here more to follow and less to provide an answer. This makes my brain hurt as I want to say that "No, you need to spend the charge" but there is nothing I can find that specifically ties together 'Dropping a device' and 'Spending a charge'.

Additionally, I've seen people saying that the wording on Trajectory Simulator ( During the System Phase...) prevents it from being used outside of the System Phase entirely... With all other Devices having the same text, this could mean anything from they themselves can't be used at all outside the System Phase, that they can be used via certain abilities/pilots (With or without a charge is TBD) or some other thing entirely.

Trajectory Simulator is clear in that you can only use it during the Systems Phase, as it, quite clearly states, During the Systems Phase... No ifs, ands, or buts.

In regards to the original question about whether you spend charges on device drops or not, here's the thing.

1. Read the card. It gives you timing, conditions, then method.

2. Check replacement effects. Does it alter timing? Does it state not to spend a charge? Does it alter condition of deployment?

Now, all the cards instruct you to spend a charge to deploy a device in the Systems Phase, when such things are supposed to happen, correct?

Paige Tico:

After you perform a Primary Attack you may drop 1 bomb or rotate your arc indicator.

After you are destroyed , you may drop 1 bomb.

In that example, the only change is to WHEN you may drop, not the cost, nor how you drop. Therefore, if you have a Skilled Bombardier, you may use that as that just affects the method of deployment.

I've yet to see a card that tells you not to spend charges on device drops.

I think the best way to think about "drop one device" is like "perform one attack." You still have to follow all the normal rules of dropping a device, other than the timing. A Proton Torpedo attack somehow granted as a bonus attack still requires you to spend a charge, still requires arc, still requires a lock.

As we look at upgrades like Seismic Charges, they also require you to spend a charge to perform the drop, and by default can only be dropped with the 1-straight.

There are a few cards which modify the templates in drops (I've had a Grand Inquisitor killed when Deathrain died and used a 2-bank to just pop him in the corner with a Proximity Mine, due to the TIE Bomber's ship ability and a Skilled Bombardier.) Trajectory Simulator, as has been described above, explicitly only works in the System Phase.

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There's something to think about in @Innese 's point about TrajSim having similar language to Devices, and effects granting device drops at other times. I guess my first reaction would be to say that effects which grant device drops other than the system phase specifically target and exempt the Devices, but they don't grant a similar exemption to TrajSim, since they don't say anything about the Sensor upgrade slot.

Does that do the trick? Genius targets a Device upgrade, but doesn't target TrajSim, and thus grants an exception to a Device that it doesn't grant to a TrajSim?

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The more I think about it, Devices could have been a lot better written. The way that secondary weapons have a clear " Attack " header is really nice. It'd be great if all devices where the same way. To rewrite Proton Bomb, for example:

• Bomb
• Drop [Systems Phase]: Spend 1 (charge) to drop a Proton Bomb using the 1 (straight) template.

Something like Trajectory Simulator would be written "You may treat the Drop [System Phase] requirement on a Bomb as Launch [System Phase] . If you do, use the 5 (straight) template." It'd more closely parallel something like Instinctive Aim. You couldn't combine TrajSim with something like Genius, because in this language scheme Genius would say "Treat the Drop [System Phase] header as Drop ," and you can't perform two replacements or substitutions on the same effect.

Something like Deathrain doesn't cause confusion under this scheme, since the opportunity to Drop or Launch immediately keys into the Drop or Launch header on the devices.

Instead, FFG was perhaps a bit more wooly than desired.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Instead, FFG was perhaps a bit more wooly than desired.

Fuzzy Flight Games.

To DROP a device, follow the steps below:
1. Take the template indicated on the upgrade card.
2. Set the template between the ship’s rear guides.
3. Place the device indicated on the upgrade card into the play area and slide the guides of the device into the opposite end of the template. Then remove the template.

Nothing in there about having to spend a charge token. The device cards themselves say to spend a charge token, but if you’re using a different ability to drop the device that isn’t a replacement ability, then you’re not using the ability on the device to drop the device, so that text is rendered moot.

I don’t think anyone would let you do this, but this is clearly an oversight in the rules and FFG either needs to change the rules for dropping devices, or more likely errata abilities like Paige so they say “*you may spend a charge from your device upgrade* to drop that device”.

23 hours ago, Tvboy said:

To DROP a device, follow the steps below:
1. Take the template indicated on the upgrade card.
2. Set the template between the ship’s rear guides.
3. Place the device indicated on the upgrade card into the play area and slide the guides of the device into the opposite end of the template. Then remove the template.

Nothing in there about having to spend a charge token. The device cards themselves say to spend a charge token, but if you’re using a different ability to drop the device that isn’t a replacement ability, then you’re not using the ability on the device to drop the device, so that text is rendered moot.

I don’t think anyone would let you do this, but this is clearly an oversight in the rules and FFG either needs to change the rules for dropping devices, or more likely errata abilities like Paige so they say “*you may spend a charge from your device upgrade* to drop that device”.

Remember to do what the card says.

The card states to spend a charge. The replacement effect comes in when instructed to drop or launch a device outside the Systems phase.

Nothing mentions not having to spend a charge, because the device upgrade tells you to do so.

Next addition to the rulebook: The please, please, please, please, please just stop rule.

think of charges as finite ammo. just because you might use one at a weird time doesn't make you have more.

On 1/10/2019 at 5:46 AM, Hobbyist said:

think of charges as finite ammo. just because you might use one at a weird time doesn't make you have more.

I'd just like to point out that there are already game mechanics that can give you infinite bomb ammunition, specifically reload. Somehow moving ammunition around inside the chamber allows you to have infinite ammunition, but that's how the reload action works, there's no hard limit on how many times a ship can recover bomb ammo with reload.

Not saying Paige lets you drop bombs without charges, just wanted to point that out.

5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I'd just like to point out that there are already game mechanics that can give you infinite bomb ammunition, specifically reload. Somehow moving ammunition around inside the chamber allows you to have infinite ammunition, but that's how the reload action works, there's no hard limit on how many times a ship can recover bomb ammo with reload.

Not saying Paige lets you drop bombs without charges, just wanted to point that out.

True, but I'm so bad with bombers that I never have gotten the opportunity to reload, so I forgot about it.