Device Tactics

Stuff to Get Out of The Way:

• This isn't a gameplay guide.
• Bombs & Devices are probably the aspect of the game I have the least amount of experience using because I found the 1.0 version of them incredibly boring.
• 2.0 system phase bombs (for the most part) are actually interesting since they seem to require some forward thinking and setup rather than instant real time reaction.
• Interested in people's thoughts on both how to use Bombs/Devices and how to avoid or counter Bombs/Devices.
• I use the term Device Interchangeable with Mine here.

Questions:

• What specifically does good bomb/device gameplay involve or look like? (I dont know the answer to this question).
• Why are bombs/devices hard or easy to use?
• Are players that are good with using 2.0 Bombs/Devices actually just good at predicting where things will be?
• Are players that are bad at avoiding 2.0 Bombs/Devices actually just bad at predicting where things will be?
• Is it more difficult to place a bomb or device in the correct place than to point or rotate an arc the correct direction?
• Poll Question 1: Are System Phase Bombs/Devices Difficult to Use?
• Poll Question 2: Are System Phase Bombs/Devices Difficult to Avoid?

The Easy Stuff to Describe:

• Devices:
  • Higher initiative ships drop a device directly on or in the movement path of a lower init ship
  • Lower initiative ships drop a device directly on or in the movement path of a higher init ship
• Bombs:
  • Higher initiative ship drop a bomb within R1 of where they think a lower init ship will be after activation
  • Lower initiative ship drop a bomb within R1 of where they think a higher init ship will be after activation
• Things that bombs/device help do or control:
  • Extra damage outside of combat
  • Generally do not sacrifice actions, dropping them in is in addition to normal attacks/actions
  • Split Up Box Swarms or Range Synergy Lists
  • Control "Jousting" Lanes
  • Force Opponents into Jousts or into being Flanked
  • Protect Flanks
  • Destroy Trickshot/Han Opportunities
  • Limit Sloop, K-Turn, and Talon Roll Options the turn after 2 ships are facing each other
  • Limit Dis-engagement Options the turn after 2 ships are facing each other
  • Infinite Initiative Kill ships
  • Players frequently forget that their opponents have bombs or devices and dont think about it at all during planning, its an extra thing to remember.
• Things that make bombs/devices easier to use:
  • Seismic increases the "AOE bubble/turret range" of the bomb
  • Ablative solves the self damage problem
  • Trajectory Simulator increases the "AOE bubble/turret range" of the bomb
  • Skilled Bombardier increases the "AOE bubble/turret range" of the bomb/device.
  • Tractor Beam lets you move ships onto devices that have been place
  • Devices stay on the table
  • Moving last helps because you can set up the device turn via reactionary boosts or barrel rolls
  • Moving first helps because you can block or tractor higher init ships on or into the path of Devices
  • Things with repositions help because you can get out of the Bombs R1 range
  • Red Stops help to avoid self damage, stall to force a bomb lane, or bomb over consecutive turns
  • Coordinate helps to avoid self damage or set up next system phase
  • Rocks help create bomb lanes
  • Edon, Finch Dallow, Genius Nym/Sixxa, Emon, Tie Bomber Ship Ability, Paige, Cad Bane, Sabine, Zuvio, Deathfire, and Deathrain all make bombs easier
  • Rattled Condition adds 1 bonus crit damage from bombs or mines
• Counter Play to Bombs & Devices:
  • Double Reposition (Boost/Roll) can avoid AOE Range
  • Pre-Movement Movement Actions: Supernatural, Coordinate, Advanced Sensors
  • Ablative Plating ignores damage
  • Range Control when Flanking
  • Attacking from the correct angle when approaching a Trajectory Sim Ship
  • Lots of HP doesn't care about 1 dmg as much
  • Small Bases spread out of formation are harder to hit than big/medium bases or lots of small bases acting like a big base
  • Decloak is incredibly effective at avoiding bombs, devices slightly less so depending on init order

Bombs/Devices That Are Used:

Bombs/Devices that Are Not Used:

I opened this post and was hooked by the first picture.

For the actual content here, I'm interested in mines/bombs a lot more in 2.0 than 1.0. With the exception of Genius and that one resistance bomber guy, all devices have to be dropped in the system phase. In 1.0, a lot of the player agency for outplaying bombs was removed since a higher Pilot Skill opponent could chose whether or not to drop bombs based on whether you were in that AOE bubble, so bombs were complete area denial at all times - not impossible to outplay, but some lists like Bob's Builders meant you had to basically always be away from the action with some lists to not get hit by bombs because the combined AOE threat was so big.

Now that bombs are dropped during the system phase, you can dial in maneuvers that leave yourself with the option of getting out of the AOE, but if your opponent doesn't drop the bomb, you can ignore the bomb and do whatever you normally wanted to do.

That being said, it doesn't make devices bad, because those counterplay options aren't always the best move for your opponent so the device is still inhibiting your opponents' mobility. Also, I still see a lot of cases where it's better to take the bomb damage on one or two ships than to be somewhere else (when I'm flying a swarm and don't want to let them out of the killbox).

As you can gather from this post, a playstyle I really enjoy is lower-initiative swarms, often generics. So that's why I'm more interested in bombs, because the leveling of the playing field via system phase makes them comparatively pretty good on lower-initiative things, so I need to start thinking about using them in my lists.

6 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

So that's why I'm more interested in bombs, because the leveling of the playing field via system phase makes them comparatively pretty good on lower-initiative things, so I need to start thinking about using them in my lists.

This is why i listed the higher vs lower init description of how they work. Its part of why the System Phase is a reasonably "safe" place for dumb things.

Higher Init can still set up the next system phases bombing/device turn better since they can adjust the turn before a little better.

The next level thing to breakdown is how multiple ships with devices in a list can use bombs/devices well closing up lanes and forcing bad choices throughout.

Or how one ship can use devices/bombs over two turns to create a device kill box etc.

23 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Devices stay on the table

Slightly conflating Devices in general with mines a bit it seems. Devices= Bombs and Mines. Mines hang around till tripped and have hard number of charges that cannot be refreshed by any source (RR "Cannot" mention in the Golden Rules). Bombs are affected by reload and generally go off at the end of the Activation Phase after they're dropped (Paige/Deathfire triggering in Engagement Phase, bomb dropped goes off at end of following turn's Activation Phase) though Nym can delay 1 a turn.

To the point of your post though. Mines (and the Rigged Cargo Chute) work best, in most cases (Constable Zuvio can use them aggressively), as zone deterrence tools while bombs are good for temporary area denial and dishing out damage in the block with some variance due to type (protbomb/bomblet drop into a slow speed successful block can work, though it is risky, Seismics are nice for shutting down movement paths via threat of drop and, as you pointed out, removing Dash, Outrider, (Scum) Han and Trickshot bonuses). If you remember they're equipped, they can be easy to plan for both in dropping and in avoiding.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Slightly conflating Devices in general with mines a bit it seems. Devices= Bombs and Mines. Mines hang around till tripped and have hard number of charges that cannot be refreshed by any source (RR "Cannot" mention in the Golden Rules). Bombs are affected by reload and generally go off at the end of the Activation Phase after they're dropped (Paige/Deathfire triggering in Engagement Phase, bomb dropped goes off at end of following turn's Activation Phase) though Nym can delay 1 a turn.

  To the point of your post though. Mines (and the Rigged Cargo Chute) work best, in most cases (Constable Zuvio can use them aggressively), as zone deterrence tools while bombs are good for temporary area denial and dishing out damage in the block with some variance due to type (protbomb/bomblet drop into a slow speed successful block can work, though it is risky, Seismics are nice for shutting down movement paths via threat of drop and, as you pointed out, removing Dash, Outrider, (Scum) Han and Trickshot bonuses). If you remember they're equipped, they can be easy to plan for both in dropping and in avoiding.

Lol thank you ill update it. I was using Device interchangeable with Mines.

Good thread, I will watch its career with great interest.

I also shy away from devices because I prefer different game elements, but I think they are now challenging and enjoyable, not frustrating.

A comment to your poll: they are not that hard to evade. But they require me to constantly adjust my maneuvers because I have to play every planning phase as if the opponent was going to use the decices/bombs, not knowing whether that's true or not.

The actual evading is not difficult. But making a good plan, getting your desired shots and not accidently disengaging for several turns because of a bomb is difficult.

One benefit of them is to deal damage, sure. But the maybe larger benefit against players like me that aren't so good is the effect on the chosen maneuvers.

In fact I would argue that I am often better off taking the one damage instead of messing up everything...

A second comment is on the rigged cargo chute: personally I treat it like a mine, but it is an action. So, not system phase but later, and the safest spot is now where normally a mine would be placed, because the cargo will definitely not land there!

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

In fact I would argue that I am often better off taking the one damage instead of messing up everything  ... 

For higher HP/shield count stuff probably?

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

For higher HP/shield count stuff probably?

Of course it depends on the list/ship, and at max one should be hit. High HP, high shield count, but also anything with a shield if you have many ships left. So in my case, also an Awing.

Yeah, this thread is right up my street.

I think I'm with @Boom Owl in that I never used bombs in 1e because I simply didn't enjoy them, but moving them to the System Phase has me really interested in them in 2e.

I haven't used anywhere near enough to actually contribute to this thread by answering some of those questions, but I'm very interested in hopefully seeing the responses of those that can.

I've done respectable damage in a couple of games with Proton Bombs on Norra, but I've had many other games where I keep forgetting about the system phase and never actually get round to dropping them, so you can see what a total bomb amateur I am. The couple of times they went off right were immensely satisfying, and I'd like to know how to better work it into my play style. Especially if I can work it into a list with Luke and/or Wedge for Hyperspace events.

I didn't use bombs or mines much in 1e because I was a lousy bomber. In 2e I've only used them on Tie Bombers and Y-wings. I've found them to be good in a furball and against high Init pilots with post maneuvering repositioning. It keeps them from the R1-2 zone in the 4 to 8 O'clock position. I prefer the proximity mine for this.

The prox mines also work well to funnel your opponent through the debris/asteroid fields if they decide to give chase. Drop them to block the exits from the field.

The counter is to attack from the 9 to 3 position or from beyond Range 2 from the stern.

For bombs, attacking from head on is good. For mines, you can often find proximity mines appearing across your intended disengage move (assuming you don't kill in that pass).

With the emergence of a decent lightweight fighter-bomber (the TIE/sk) you can find yourself facing a heavy swarm of 5 3-dice ships, which in addition to trying to create a kill-box can spit out a net of mines so the box, to some degree, stays there after they move off.

Seismic charges are also very good weapons. As noted, you can often drop a bomb within range 1 of multiple rocks, giving you a very nice flexible area burst - and big rocks are also much larger than a normal bomb template for good measure. Plus, with blackout, outrider, custom falcons, and the like, a bit of aggressive landscape gardening can pay dividends even if you don't catch anyone in the blast. The first rule of jungle warfare is, after all, to eliminate the jungle if possible.

Last week I played a game against a guy with a Resistance Bomber in a list he had been using for a while, and near the end he made a comment along the lines of “its funny how hard people work to avoid bombs (he was using seismic charges and proton bombs). It’s only one damage.”

I realized that he was right, and I had spent many of my actions and planned many maneuvers specifically to try to avoid a bomb drop, even on my two Upsilon Shuttles, who (with their 12 health and plenty of shields) really shouldn’t care about a bomb or two. There were plenty of rounds where I could have just driven in hard, eaten a bombs damage on my shields, and then fired away at range 1 with modded attacks, but instead I had chosen to turn away from the fight or dialed in a slow/red maneuver just to avoid the bomb damage and ended up with either unmodified attacks or no attacks at all.

So one huge advantage of bombs that is often overlooked is that it encourages your opponent to make suboptimal decisions during the planning phase and action steps.

15 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

So one huge advantage of bombs that is often              overlooked is that it encourages your opponent to make su  boptimal decisions during the planning phase and action s  tep  s. 

I think that is often their primary effect; the damage is secondary for ships other than TIEs and Z-95s.

You might want to include what happens when the bomb/mine/system detonates.

But with so many pilots/ships/upgrades now making asteroids more of a platform than an obstacle, I expect to see some seismic weapons to counter those fraggles.

8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

But with so many pilots/ships/upgrades now making asteroids more of a platform than an obstacle, I expect to see some seismic weapons to counter those fraggles.

This. As I said, aggressive landscape gardening is often the way to go. It also often produces the biggest and most flexible boom (because of the size and positioning of obstacle fields), making it a great anti-swarm weapon.