19 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

And why are all examples of rule breaking brewing over with hyperbole in this thread?

Apparently, some people have no sense of humour...

22 hours ago, themensch said:

I mean, we have canonical examples of people existing in open vacuum, so where is that fantasy line really drawn?

Canon nothing, we have examples of actual people doing it. I mean it's been by accident and not very long, but they've done it. Really the threat is from things like solar radiation and UV. Going suddenly form 1 Atmo to 0, while not healthy, is 100% survivable. Basically you'd just get a sudden case of the bends, and probably start seeing embolisms after not long. But as soon as you get back into 1 Atmo you'd stabilize pretty quick.

I mean, I'd have to be in pretty dire straights to intentionally blow myself out an airlock, but as long as I didn't get irradiated, cooked by UV, or stay outside long enough to have a heart attack or a stroke, I'd be ok. I mean every time after when I said "I've been worse" that's probably what I'd be talking about, but I'd still be around to say it.

Additionally it's possible, and even probable that a starship would have less than one atmo just for economic reasons, and indeed warships might completely rejigger their mix to drop the atmo as low as possible when you sound general quarters.

That said, going from say 9 Atmos to 0 is going to be pretty horrific. So probably best to not take that flying submarine from the base on the ocean floor and directly into a battle in orbit.

26 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Canon nothing, we have examples of actual people doing it.

A few seconds is one thing - floating through space, riding a space whale, or walking around in a giant space worm are completely different. Not to continue picking nits here, as I agree it isn't the vacuum that's the only killer, it's the temperature and radiation that are equally harmful.

2 minutes ago, themensch said:

A few seconds is one thing - floating through space, riding a space whale...

Depends on how long and other conditions.

How long was Leia out there? Like... a couple minutes at most? It's a stretch, but no more a stretch than the various underwater movies that have people holding their breath for minutes at a time. I'm sure Leia had a bacta IV afterwards, but the bottom line is, even just using normal movie reality bending it's not as far fetched as it seems.

The space-whale is another issue since they also had helmets on, and later nothing, implying that there was sufficient air pressure on that asteroid to avoid getting an embolism or lung damage. And that probably wouldn't need to be a heck of a lot. Everest is something like 30,000 ft and has an air pressure roughly 1/3 that of sealevel. It's a little hard to breathe up there, but otherwise not a huge problem.

10 minutes ago, themensch said:

walking around in a giant space worm

I don't understand how... but I always assumed that wasn't a vacuum...

11 minutes ago, themensch said:

it's the temperature

Actually this is probably pretty low on the threat list. Heat/cold has trouble in a vacuum, so you'd probably die of one of the other problems long before this.

57 minutes ago, themensch said:

A few seconds is one thing - floating through space, riding a space whale, or walking around in a giant space worm are completely different. Not to continue picking nits here, as I agree it isn't the vacuum that's the only killer, it's the temperature and radiation that are equally harmful.

43 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Depends on how long and other conditions.

How long was Leia out there? Like... a couple minutes at most? It's a stretch, but no more a stretch than the various underwater movies that have people holding their breath for minutes at a time. I'm sure Leia had a bacta IV afterwards, but the bottom line is, even just using normal movie reality bending it's not as far fetched as it seems.

The space-whale is another issue since they also had helmets on, and later nothing, implying that there was sufficient air pressure on that asteroid to avoid getting an embolism or lung damage. And that probably wouldn't need to be a heck of a lot. Everest is something like 30,000 ft and has an air pressure roughly 1/3 that of sealevel. It's a little hard to breathe up there, but otherwise not a huge problem.

I don't understand how... but I always assumed that wasn't a vacuum...

Actually this is probably pretty low on the threat list. Heat/cold has trouble in a vacuum, so you'd probably die of one of the other problems long before this.

@Ghostofman is correct here. In each of those situations, the characters did have an atmosphere around them, even in the Space Slug. They weren't vacuums.

It's lack of O2 that kills you in space. You'll have a series of other unpleasant stuff if you survive, but its asphyxiation that kills you. You can't hold your breath, in fact that's the exact wrong thing to do, you'd tear your lungs up. You've got maybe 2 minutes without too much lasting damage, at 3 to 5 your brain is a turnip best case, at 6 you're definitely brain dead.

13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@Ghostofman is correct here. In each of those situations, the characters did have an atmosphere around them, even in the Space Slug. They weren't vacuums.

Of course you know I'm going to ask you to prove that. However, I'll spare you the effort because I don't honestly care that much. Grain of salt etc.

13 minutes ago, themensch said:

Of course you know I'm going to ask you to prove that. However, I'll spare you the effort because I don't honestly care that much. Grain of salt etc.

Well I'm sure the real answer is that Star wars is a Flash Gordon knock off and so George didn't care about it any more than the director of Flash did.

But you can quasi-science it in that Mynoks have bat wings that they use to fly, thus implying atmosphere beyond the heroes only needing a breathmask.

Eventually you will hit insanity level 5000 though. I mean, Purgils prove you don't need wings to fly in space, and then they appear in atmo and... fly... using the power of.... angry midichlorian farts?

16 minutes ago, themensch said:

Of course you know I'm going to ask you to prove that. However, I'll spare you the effort because I don't honestly care that much. Grain of salt etc.

So much for "common sense". You referenced that before but it seems to me that's one of those fall-back positions of people who don't know things, and evidently don't want to know.

Besides, it's so easy for you to verify on this google-machine, and you'll see that GoM, TG, and the pirate are correct about it. People freaked out about the Leia scene, but that was completely possible IRL, never mind fantasy-ville.

3 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Eventually you will hit insanity level 5000 though. I mean, Purgils prove you don't need wings to fly in space, and then they appear in atmo and... fly... using the power of.... angry midichlorian farts?

Oh, that's easy. Given there is "hyperspace" which seems to share a 1:1 coordinate system with realspace, and purgils can travel both, perhaps their bodies are always slightly "tapped in" to hyperspace giving them something to push off of or float in, and gives them their locomotive ability in realspace.

26 minutes ago, whafrog said:

So much for "common sense". You referenced that before but it seems to me that's one of those fall-back positions of people who don't know things, and evidently don't want to know.

Besides, it's so easy for you to verify on this google-machine, and you'll see that GoM, TG, and the pirate are correct about it. People freaked out about the Leia scene, but that was completely possible IRL, never mind fantasy-ville.

Don't give me credit I'm not due. The Leia scene was trash. She was on the command deck of a ship shredded by 4 anti ship missiles, the overpressure wave would've popped her like a grape. Then explosively decompressed through a hail of shrapnel. Finally hurled hundreds of meters from the ship.

A person might survive 2 minutes of space with no super serious effects. Leia's scene was Kung Fu theatre absurd.....and she looked like Mary Poppins.....

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

Don't give me credit I'm not due. The Leia scene was trash. She was on the command deck of a ship shredded by 4 anti ship missiles, the overpressure wave would've popped her like a grape. Then explosively decompressed through a hail of shrapnel. Finally hurled hundreds of meters from the ship.

Which makes her the first hero in an adventure movie to survive an explosion and being thrown around, of course.

Quote

A person might survive 2 minutes of space with no super serious effects. Leia's scene was Kung Fu theatre absurd.....and she looked like Mary Poppins.....

If only Kung Fu movies had been an influence on Star Wars previously, then this wouldn't be so totally out of the blue! I mean, if there had been a duel between aging samurais with mystic zen powers in these movies, we clearly wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

2 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

Well I'm sure the real answer is that Star wars is a Flash Gordon knock off and so George didn't care about it any more than the director of Flash did.

But you can quasi-science it in that Mynoks have bat wings that they use to fly, thus implying atmosphere beyond the heroes only needing a breathmask.

Eventually you will hit insanity level 5000 though. I mean, Purgils prove you don't need wings to fly in space, and then they appear in atmo and... fly... using the power of.... angry midichlorian farts?

I guess there's some sort of membrane in exogorths that we just didn't see?

4 minutes ago, themensch said:

I guess there's some sort of membrane in exogorths that we just didn't see?

The space hymen.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

So much for "common sense". You referenced that before but it seems to me that's one of those fall-back positions of people who don't know things, and evidently don't want to know.

Besides, it's so easy for you to verify on this google-machine, and you'll see that GoM, TG, and the pirate are correct about it. People freaked out about the Leia scene, but that was completely possible IRL, never mind fantasy-ville.

I beg your pardon? Of course it's easy for me to verify real scientific knowledge in the real world using real google.

29 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

The space hymen.

Well that image ain't going away anytime soon... It's ok, I wasn't planing on sleeping tonight anyway...

13 hours ago, LordBritish said:

That being said, there will be some situations that throw one or more of those constants out of the window. The force for example might be difficult to understand, but this antagonist seems to project a doppleganger whenever he is defeated, when in truth that being had buried himself in the temple of time itself and was using it to intercept the players earlier attempts to defeat him. The force might only behave as it does because the Jedi *believe* that is the way it's meant to behave, remote hacking is possible if there is a computer spike imbedded in the central console, one of which might have been left intentionally by a long departed ally, allowing them to hack the system remotely. My party once even met the Celestrals in a Son/Daughter/Father type situation, 10 beings of collective power that could reshape the landscape, summoning volcanos out of nothing to harass us and made a home in a spire that constantly constructed itself, all the while the land reshaped itself as we navigated their wraith to collective safety. It made for a spectacular series of scenes that completely uprooted any conventional reality give this environment was so extortionary that it was made it a spectacular "season" ending, but if become common place would lack impact and consistant. The fantastic should be fantastic and rules should be rules.

Which is another point; my GM treats his story arcs like seasons in a series. I can give better examples that make sense of the somewhat disjointed commentary above, just running short on time.

I somehow don't feel the need to brake / bend (depends on perspective) the rules to make climactic Finales.

It's like making a movie for only the looks. Easier than writing an interesting plot with twists and interesting characters.

P.S. Not saying it's wrong. If it works for you, it's sure amusing, and eventually that's the point of playing.

29 minutes ago, Rimsen said:

I somehow don't feel the need to brake / bend (depends on perspective) the      rules to make climactic Finales. 

Not to put words in LordBritish's mouth - Ultima Underworld 2 was pretty great, by the way! - but it reads to me that the rules of the universe turn out to be vastly more complex than the players and characters assumed, not that they were.broken.

17 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Extreme examples goes both ways; your insistence that those that don't break the rules whenever they can are effectively part of the 99% that are NPCs is extreme (and totally wrong).

As for ridiculous examples, you've used Ezra's time travel, and we can also include all of the "new' hyperspace stuff along with 'copter sabers and even the Force "trinity" of father, son, and daughter. All of those are what I consider to be extremely stupid examples of the direction Star Wars has gone in the last few years. I would have no problems ruling such things out in games I run, and I'm unlikely to play in any game that includes them.

So you hate the new stuff and therefore it’s hyperbole instead of established canon examples of the concept I’m trying to convey? Sounds reasonable.

And yeah, 99% of a fictional galaxy are NPCs who have to live by a clear set of rules. The other 1% can bend/break/work around them to make for good storytelling, be they hero or villain. Please keep in mind I’m not talking about the breaking of GAME rules here, just established fictional world rules. There’s no point in breaking the game rules when they’re already made to reflect this whole idea.

16 hours ago, whafrog said:

Apparently, some people have no sense of humour...

I swear I do, and I’ve laughed a lot at how seriously some people take their fantasy physics in this thread. But when you use examples of established canon to show your point and the responses are “bleh, why not just let chaos reign and have people fly by flapping their arms and by the way I hate the new material so much it keeps me up at night and I end up raging so hard I tear apart pictures of Rian Johnson with my teeth until I pass out” (now that’s hyperbole) it kind of beats you down after awhile. Mainly from sadness that people are actually hung up so bad on it. I was kinda hoping that wasn’t a real thing.

I did enjoy the visual of someone being evaporated by the speed they’d need to make a throw around a planet though. That’s good stuff.

8 hours ago, Rimsen said:

I somehow don't feel the need to brake / bend (depends on perspective) the rules to make climactic Finales.

It's like making a movie for only the looks. Easier than writing an interesting plot with twists and interesting characters.

P.S. Not saying it's wrong. If it works for you, it's sure amusing, and eventually that's the point of playing.

7 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Not to put words in LordBritish's mouth - Ultima Underworld 2 was pretty great, by the way! - but it reads to me that the rules of the universe turn out to be vastly more complex than the players and characters assumed, not that they were.broken.

Stan Fresh has my thoughts right; it isn't so much that that the laws of the galaxy have changed but rather there are either some elements of the galaxy that is inherently impossible to understand from the material plane (the force and it's "goals" is the most oblivious, even at the best of times it's a vague entity.). In this particular case we met the celestrals it was because the antagonist expressively wanted to use an item of power to control them to enact... something. A new power base? I suspect the current nemesis (a long dead sith lord whom has taken residence in an ex Padawan who defected to the empire) we seek who has attempted to uncover some great nexus underneath the Imperial Palace might have been the real master mind behind that scheme as the inquisitor whom we slain moments before we were dragged through the portal to that session hadn't explained why he was trying so hard to get there, we just knew that particular inquisitor was very capable of mental domination thus we could infer that he intended to use them for some purpose and had only stopped him minutes short of his goal. What we instead were confronted with was a calm paradise that slowly turned into a hostile landscape that wanted to repel intruders, guided to safety by a figure we could scarcely comprehend. We never really had the opportunity to question what was going on as we were constantly navigating the landscape, all we were told was "That we were once cast out of the Galaxy, it isn't our time to rejoin the galaxy as a whole. Perhaps there never will be." When we emerged through another portal back to real space, the Empire were examining the site closely; they had exclaimed that they had thought us long dead and that 4 months had passed. What had been a couple hours of adventure in a hostile space didn't follow the same laws of time.

The best thing about it was? There was no concrete answers as to what just occurred. Tobin concluded that from his observations the environment they saw mightn't have even been what we seen; some nano particles that those beings could easily manipulate on some level to produce massive effects that gave them a home advantage they otherwise wouldn't have had, but in truth that might have been an answer he gave himself to feel better about what they had just witnessed. One of the greatest sins of a GM or a storyteller is to assume that every mystery and thread needs to be told and understood; Lord of the Rings is vast as it is because of this perception of depth to the world that not everything behaves in a way Billbo/Frodo understands, so I was glad my GM never gave an explanation as to why the these beings were able to do what they did as our imaginations could come up with different, equally valid answers. A mystery that didn't need solving, an epilogue to a plot that should us what we potentially prevented and I feel that the tendency to over explain is what ruins good stories.

So yeah, it wasn't chucking out the rules to make for a climatic ending, it was a very fundamental plot point for us to overcome as this very powerful Dark side user desired something very strongly from this region that we could still only speculate on. I still believe it is absolutely fundamental that most of the galaxy follows the rules of the galaxy (most people would go their entire lives without ever having to need to interact with a force sensitive after all.) but there always will be some environment in a fantasy setting that doesn't entirely make sense. The Hobbits for example didn't live on the same plane as man and elves, but rather lived in a side dimension that was completely untouched by the passage of time that could only be entered through the Old Woods, until Sharman came and corrupted everything with industry, or the Vale that the elves departed to at the movies end which was the land of the gods that the elves could only get to because, I quote "the elves see the earth as flat."The Caves of Dagobah is another; manifesting half truths as real apparitions that allure towards a dark truth, it's origin was never explained or perhaps never known, only precisely what it did. The Son, Father and Daughter arc was utterly bonkers, but it was debatable whether it had happened at all, or was it? Or that Maelstrom monster that reminded me of that parallax in Green Lantern that existed in a strange portion of space that was incredibly hostile and alien, the characters didn't have time to question the mystery.

The only reason I didn't really like the dark mirror scene in the Last Jedi is because I didn't think it went far enough; it literally felt like a cool cinematic effect that allured towards... Nothing but a coy remark on the directors behalf on Rays' parentage? There just wasn't any mystery to chew over and there was nothing new offered to make the force alien, it was just kind of there, a neat packaged dark artefact that frankly reminds me that I don't think the movie directors actually understands that star wars is meant to be a fantasy in a retro-futuristic setting, not science fiction with a spice of fantasy.

Of course, if your playing Edge of the Empire or Age of Rebellion without any Force tapping's then we may never ever go to that crazy notch of the galaxy and that would be perfectly fine. Just I believe any force and destiny campaign should at least consider introducing at least one element of the unknown, either something subtle, unexplained, or a big mess that is scarcely understood that might actually be dangerous to mortals. It's those great mysteries that even the GM mightn't know the answer to (but should never tell the players that is the case! They should believe in the world) make a story more then just a table told fable.


That being said, it isn't a nit-pick as every table has their own ways of doing things, I just wanted to talk about an alternative point of view for a long time.

I think we can admit that our rampant forum speculation about the true nature of The Force can be summed up nicely in gif format:

5 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

So you hate the new stuff and therefore it’s hyperbole instead of established canon examples of the concept I’m trying to convey? Sounds reasonable.

And yeah, 99% of a fictional galaxy are NPCs who have to live by a clear set of rules. The other 1% can bend/break/work around them to make for good storytelling, be they hero or villain. Please keep in mind I’m not talking about the breaking of GAME rules here, just established fictional world rules. There’s no point in breaking the game rules when they’re already made to reflect this whole idea.

You've missed the point entirely and I really have no desire to educate you. Instead, I'll just ignore you. Goodbye.

54 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

You've missed the point entirely and I really have no desire to educate you. Instead, I'll just ignore you. Goodbye.

Closing your eyes doesn't make other people's destruction of your arguments go away.

33 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Closing your eyes doesn't make other people's destruction of your arguments go away.

No, but it sure unburdens the psyche not having to pick nits over semantics. You ever get the feeling some people are just spoiling for a fight and it's not worth your time to engage?