Hi,

as I'm not that familiar with Rokugani culture (or it's inspirational sources in our world), I am wondering about the dress code for samurai, especially in "game terms":

Since samurai of most schools in L5R start with "traveling clothes", but no "common clothes", does that mean, traveling clothes are supposed to be their day-to-day clothes, even when not actually traveling?
Then we have the odd case of the Doji Diplomat, who only has "ceremonial clothes" - are these, then, their every-day outfit? So, do samurai always wear ceremonial clothes when at a palace/residence or only on specific occasions? Are you allowed to be at court without wearing ceremonial clothes and if so, do you wear traveling clothes (because you are a bushi and don't own ceremonial and, strangely, neither common ones)?

I am a little confused by this, because if you couldn't wear traveling clothes at court etc, then it would (to me at least) look like most non-courtier characters would have to acquire ceremonial clothes pretty early in many campaigns, which seems a bit... strange(?), since it's such a basic item.
I understand that bushi get armor instead and that both (armor and ceremonial clothes) are "tools" for two different professions, but at least regarding PCs in an "average" campaign, who will probably be quite often in a high(er) ranking samurai's residence/at court, but not so often in an actual battlefield, it's a bit funny, if those campaigns would always start with the question: "Where do I get ceremonial clothes from?" 😀

Do you guys get where I come from or am I making a mountain out of a molehill here? 😀 Maybe this is a "problem" which mostly gets ignored in play or is actually no problem at all...?

2 hours ago, Stollentroll17 said:

Maybe this is a "problem" which mostly gets ignored in play or is actually no problem at all...?

As with anything else you need to be a proper retainer and not shame your lord, clothing is provided for you by that lord. Traveling clothes are for on the road, when you go and introduce yourself to the local ranking samurai you first change into something that will give a better impression - whether you're a courtier, a bushi or a shugenja. Ceremonial clothes are only worn if the occasion merits it. Essentially, your presentable day-to-day wear is not mentioned at all in your starting outfit because it's clothing everyone has. The starting outfit really mentions equipment that is suited to your school, but probably not to everyone else.

The only real exception here would be monks (and not the tattooed kind), but without schools for them yet that's nothing to worry about for now.

I would say that you can assume everyone has enough "Common Clothes" for their everyday life, which will cover most situations a samurai is expected to face.

Then most school's starting outfit will provide some clothes or armor that gives better resistance and/or has better qualities, but they might not be appropriate in every situation.

If you would like to learn more about specific pieces of samurai clothing and armor, while Wikipedia might not be the most historically accurate source, it will at least help you get some information and vocabulary to bring at your table if you so wish.

14 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

As with anything else you need to be a proper retainer and not shame your lord, clothing is provided for you by that lord. Traveling clothes are for on the road, when you go and introduce yourself to the local ranking samurai you first change into something that will give a better impression - whether you're a courtier, a bushi or a shugenja. Ceremonial clothes are only worn if the occasion merits it. Essentially, your presentable day-to-day wear is not mentioned at all in your starting outfit because it's clothing everyone has. The starting outfit really mentions equipment that is suited to your school, but probably not to everyone else.

The only real exception here would be monks (and not the tattooed kind), but without schools for them yet that's nothing to worry about for now.

Please expand on your monk comment, because there are schools for non-tattooed monks (and I'm not counting the Kaito). They're in Emerald Empire.

Emerald Empire doesn't exist until they release a PDF. My wallet is waiting.

3 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

Please expand on your monk comment, because there are schools for non-tattooed monks (and I'm not counting the Kaito). They're in Emerald Empire.

That's great, but I can't get EE yet. That said, monks are not retainers and as such are not provided by a lord with everything they need to perform their service. Tattooed monks are somewhere in between, which puts them in a fuzzy situation with regards to outfits, but Shinseist and Fortunist monks will pretty much just get the essential necessities from the temple they stay at (unless they're an abbot perhaps) - everyday robes and meals from the kitchen. Anything else is not deemed needed while the monk seeks enlightenment.

A note about 'Common Clothes'. I believe that those listed in the Scorpion schools is actually clothing that a commoner would wear, for disguising oneself.

I'd also point out that you could get yourself a spare set of clothes as one of the 3 Rarity 4 or less items in your travelling pack, if you so desired.

Your starting stipend should also easily cover if you need to pick up a spare outfit of clothes, though armor is a bit pricey (though your Lord should provide you with armor if you're going to war).

On 1/5/2019 at 11:22 PM, Stollentroll17 said:

Hi,

as I'm not that familiar with Rokugani culture (or it's inspirational sources in our world), I am wondering about the dress code for samurai, especially in "game terms":

Since samurai of most schools in L5R start with "traveling clothes", but no "common clothes", does that mean, traveling clothes are supposed to be their day-to-day clothes, even when not actually traveling?
Then we have the odd case of the Doji Diplomat, who only has "ceremonial clothes" - are these, then, their every-day outfit? So, do samurai always wear ceremonial clothes when at a palace/residence or only on specific occasions? Are you allowed to be at court without wearing ceremonial clothes and if so, do you wear traveling clothes (because you are a bushi and don't own ceremonial and, strangely, neither common ones)?

I am a little confused by this, because if you couldn't wear traveling clothes at court etc, then it would (to me at least) look like most non-courtier characters would have to acquire ceremonial clothes pretty early in many campaigns, which seems a bit... strange(?), since it's such a basic item.
I understand that bushi get armor instead and that both (armor and ceremonial clothes) are "tools" for two different professions, but at least regarding PCs in an "average" campaign, who will probably be quite often in a high(er) ranking samurai's residence/at court, but not so often in an actual battlefield, it's a bit funny, if those campaigns would always start with the question: "Where do I get ceremonial clothes from?" 😀

Do you guys get where I come from or am I making a mountain out of a molehill here? 😀 Maybe this is a "problem" which mostly gets ignored in play or is actually no problem at all...?

IMHO you are making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill.

How I see it:

There is no particular difference between "Common" and "Travel" clothes. Travel clothes are just more resilient and thus more expensive. If you want I suppose you could create wear and tear rules to represent this, but, honestly, the increased Resistance and the Durable trait on travelling clothes already take care of that. They are pretty much what your standard samurai would wear in most circunstances.

The Ceremonial clothes, those are your high status garments. I wouldn't treat them as necessary to present yourself at all courts, but you're probably not sitting with the Emperor at all if the only thing you have are common clothes and you might lose some Honor and/or Glory for presenting yourself as a country bumpkin in Court. If a samurai has risen enough in the world that they are regularly attending court than they can afford a nice set of blinged out apparel. This is what you wear to impress. If you can afford it you can use it as much as you want, even on your everyday life (unlike real life, Rokugani ceremonial robes don't seem to be as constricting and impratical as Japanese Nagabakama or the Roman Toga).

Now depending on wheter or not you are up for it you can go full hog and create sumptuary laws for your Rokugan and define what each status rank can and can't wear and maybe in more detail than what the game provides, but don't feel obliged about it. There is no need to sweat about it.

If you're into it I sugest taking a look here , particulalry the outfit sections. Multiple types of outfits from different time periods are described with link to specific pieces of garment and you can even get on how to describe what your NPCs (or the PCs) are wearing.

Also, notice how the Mirumoto Bushi gets both Travelling Clothes, Ceremonial Clothes and Armor. If it's bugging you and/or if it make sense for your campaign of for one of your characters just give them the additional set of clothes you think they need. It's not going to break the game.

So I think the important distinction to remember here is Ceremonial clothes have the "Ceremonial" tag - which one of the benefits is that it is much easier to establish your bona fides in. This is a practical purpose they serve - they are probably what we see a lot of L5R art of, well-made clothes in clear Clan Colors with big honking mons all over them so anybody looking at you knows that you are a Mirumoto Samurai of the Dragon Clan, and you are going about on your official business, because your clothes very clearly declare this. Other types of clothes are better suited to various day to day tasks, where you shouldn't need to declare who you are and whose business you're on.

But yes it also should be noted theoretically you have whatever you should need at home or with your lord or whatever. Every samurai "owns" a katana, but if you are not a bushi and don't wish to wear swords openly to declare so, because that means you're a legitimate combatant, you probably leave it enshrined at home. Your starting outfit is basically all the kit you should be carrying and received probably around gempukku, either from your dojo as part of training/graduation, or from your family or superiors as gifts or tools to use in your new duty.

Basic idea of the EE monks

Fortunist: Kata, Rituals, Shūji. Invocations only on specific ranks as privileged acces. Can importune safely. semi-shujenja

Shinseist: Kiho, Kata, Rituals. Basically an anime monk.

Thanks for all the answers!

No one needs to bother about common clothes, cause everyone has enough of them additionally to what their school's starting outfit is - perfect! This makes a lot of sense, but it somehow didn't occur to me. I think, what confused me, was the Doji Diplomats lack of traveling clothes (and thus a supposed lack of anything to wear outside of formal situations)... and I wanted to be sure, my PCs would not need to be welcomed by the city governor wearing their dusty traveling clothes 😀

Note that even the Doji diplomat gets a traveling pack in their starting outfit.. in addition to the standard stuff in there, you can pick any three items of rarity 4 or less... so this can include traveling clothes cf. Page 245

20 hours ago, Stollentroll17 said:

and I wanted to be sure, my PCs would not need to be welcomed by the city governor wearing their dusty traveling clothes 😀

I think you can also assume that either:

• If you were sent on a specific mission by your lord to meet with someone of high status, they will have provided you with proper clothing that fits the goal of the mission and occasion during which the meeting will occur.
• If the situation happened on the fly so there was no preparation possible, and given there is no absolute emergency that would bypass the need for propriety, any host of a certain level will have an army of servants taking charge of anyone that is granted an audience without having the proper attire. They'll be allowed to clean up and will be provided with proper clothes and accessories that fit the occasion.

14 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

I think you can also assume that either:

• If you were sent on a specific mission by your lord to meet with someone of high status, they will have provided you with proper clothing that fits the goal of the mission and occasion during which the meeting will occur.
• If the situation happened on the fly so there was no preparation possible, and given there is no absolute emergency that would bypass the need for propriety, any host of a certain level will have an army of servants taking charge of anyone that is granted an audience without having the proper attire. They'll be allowed to clean up and will be provided with proper clothes and accessories that fit the occasion.

Unless it's urgent enough, in which case, dust-and-all, one is lead in, takes off the geta, puts on guest waraji, and makes their report. Then, if not needing to run off themselves, they go to the bath, and get loaners until their own have been washed and dried, and the local responds immediately...

I tell my players that their characters will always have whatever they need to effectively function as a samurai in Rokugan, and to do their assigned duty. So, they all have several sets of clothing, appropriate to the circumstances they're likely to encounter. They have traveling clothes, which are generally plain and durable (and include things like cloaks, hats, etc.). They also have "day-to-day" clothes, which are generally "common clothes"; these are finer quality, less durable and more intended for indoor than outdoor wear. Finally, most will have, if it's appropriate to the character, "ceremonial clothes" which would be worn in Court or similar, formal situations, like meeting a Town Governor, daimyo, etc. I usually introduce some variation in the latter; for instance, a Doji Courtier would certainly have ceremonial clothes, while a Hida bushi probably wouldn't (unless he/she needed them for some specific purpose). Nor do I normally make a big deal about characters having--when it comes to routine, mundane, quality-of-life/needed-for-the-job items and equipment--what they need, when they need it. I usually just stipulate they've got it.

The only time I generally make what the characters possess (and are carrying) an issue is, well, when it matters--when they're a significant distance away from civilization, for instance. This all reflects my desire to focus on the story, the dramatic narrative, rather than worrying about what I see as largely uninteresting bookkeeping. Now, I hasten to add that another GM may be the exact opposite, and that's cool...it just doesn't work for me.

I go back to one of my earliest role playing experiences, back when I had just discovered D&D (1st edition, at that). I dropped into a game being played in a (now long-gone) game store in Toronto, and found the DM required the characters to specify when they were eating and drinking, if and when they would change clothing, and--and I am entirely serious here--when characters were urinating and defecating. If the players didn't do this, then they were assumed to be respectively starving, dying of thirst, reeking like stinky socks, or--again, entirely serious--had pi**ed or s**t themselves. That day, I learned a firm lesson in how NOT to DM a game.

I dunno. I prefer to think of starting outfits as the stuff that a PC is expected to have on them no matter what. (or the PC has those things unless the GM is specifically depriving them of it.) It can be assumed that the PC "owns" other things and will use those things if they expect to need them, but if the PC has to run out of the house in the middle of the night, the starting kit is what they take with them. If the PC's are kidnapped by goblins and escape to a nearby town, the courtiers will likely be the only ones with ceremonial clothes needed to make a good impression on the lord of that town.. meanwhile, the Bushi will have been the only ones who have weapons and armor unless a fight was expected to begin with. Essentially, I think it's up to the GM to tell their players when they have access to things that aren't in the starting kit.

My own group seems to have trouble with the idea that ALL samurai own at least one katana because it's not listed in all of their kits, but the Katana is a sign of station for samurai. Most non-bushi don't actually carry the katana because carrying it implies that your ready to use it and sometimes that's just not what your role is, but not carrying it isn't the same as not owning it. Even poor samurai are wealthy, they own many things that aren't listed, but exactly what is owned is at the GM's discretion or as required by the adventure.

23 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

My own group seems to have trouble with the idea that ALL samurai own at least one katana because it's not listed in all of their kits, but the Katana is a sign of station for samurai. Most non-bushi don't actually carry the katana because carrying it implies that your ready to use it and sometimes that's just not what your role is, but not carrying it isn't the same as not owning it. Even poor samurai are wealthy, they own many things that aren't listed, but exactly what is owned is at the GM's discretion or as required by the adventure.

In the canon setting, this is actually the wakizashi, the shorter of the two swords that commonly comprise the daisho. Every samurai would have a wakizashi, and would normally wear it as their symbol of station. Most would also have a katana, since most will receive a complete daisho, often passed down from an ancestor (although younger siblings may not receive an ancestral daisho, unless that particular family has a tradition of handing such daisho down to younger siblings and they are available.) It wouldn't be unreasonable for a samurai to have a new daisho, made specifically for them, as well. As you note, though, even if most samurai possess a katana, the only ones who would wear it routinely would be those prepared to use it. So, while essentially all samurai will possess and wear a wakizashi, only those able to actually properly wield a katana (normally, but not solely, bushi) would wear it.

In your setting, of course, if you prefer the katana to be the symbol of station for a samurai, then that's cool!

27 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

It wouldn't be unreasonable for a samurai to have a new daisho, made specifically for them, as well.

It wouldn't be unreasonable for a samurai to own a whole wall of katanas and wakizashis. One from the gempukku, one from the family, one from the lord, one from an ally or friend, one specifically for the samurai, one pretty one the samurai can wear in courts, one pragmatic and simple one the samurai can wear in war, etc. Choosing the "proper" daisho can be a game by itself!

There are rules for common clothes in Core Book. Line 2 of Table 5-3: Armor in page 239: Mundane, rarity 1, cost 1 bu, as you would imagine for clothes you wear every day. I assume the starting gear only lists anything noteworthy the character has, rules- or storywise, which is why I almost always assume the Travel Pack has anything mundane the character might need, unless they are lost in the Shadowlands wilderness or in some equally limited context.

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 2:27 PM, DGLaderoute said:

In the canon setting, this is actually the wakizashi, the shorter of the two swords that commonly comprise the daisho. Every samurai would have a wakizashi, and would normally wear it as their symbol of station. Most would also have a katana, since most will receive a complete daisho, often passed down from an ancestor (although younger siblings may not receive an ancestral daisho, unless that particular family has a tradition of handing such daisho down to younger siblings and they are available.) It wouldn't be unreasonable for a samurai to have a new daisho, made specifically for them, as well. As you note, though, even if most samurai possess a katana, the only ones who would wear it routinely would be those prepared to use it. So, while essentially all samurai will possess and wear a wakizashi, only those able to actually properly wield a katana (normally, but not solely, bushi) would wear it.

In your setting, of course, if you prefer the katana to be the symbol of station for a samurai, then that's cool!

I consider that all samurai actually have a Daisho, (or at least most, as you say. their are exceptions to every rule) but most only carry the wakazashi. This goes along with the new edition's insistence that all samurai are samurai and "bushi", "courtier", and "shugenja" are just roles that the samurai typically fulfills. I also like the concept that a lord should be able to ask any samurai to perform any task that the lord requires and the samurai should be expected to perform that task to the best of their ability. Even with Shugenja being necessary exceptions due to their unique ability to use magic, the basic job of the shugenja, (to see to the spiritual needs of the samurai), is something that all samurai should be willing to do whenever they may be asked.

With that said, even among bushi there are some who don't typically carry Katanas. Hida Yakamo, for example, might be forced to fight a duel using his Tetsubo, Hida O-Ushi generally prefers to use a Die-tsuchi. I'm not sure if Tsuruchi family exists in the current setting, but in the old lore they were given bows instead of daisho.

To the greater point of the thread though, I think the starting kit should be thought of as "stuff the PC always has or can access, unless specifically denied by the GM." or in a narrative sense it's "what would the PC take with them if they woke up and the building was on fire?"

P.S.: which makes it interesting to note that only the crane care about their servants.

21 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

I consider that all samurai actually have a Daisho, (or at least most, as you say. their are exceptions to every rule) but most only carry the wakazashi. This goes along with the new edition's insistence that all samurai are samurai and "bushi", "courtier", and "shugenja" are just roles that the samurai typically fulfills.

Most, but not all, own a daisho - if it was all, then every starting outfit would include one. Most who own a daisho also carry both swords when appropriate. That's simply because the far greater majority of samurai in Rokugan are trained to be bushi. The tags are mostly linked to a samurai's school and school and purpose are closely linked: why study at a school that focuses entirely on martial pursuits to become a negotiator in court, or vice versa? Samurai strive for excellence in everything they do.

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 8:24 PM, nameless ronin said:

Most, but not all, own a daisho - if it was all, then every starting outfit would include one. Most who own a daisho also carry both swords when appropriate. That's simply because the far greater majority of samurai in Rokugan are trained to be bushi. The tags are mostly linked to a samurai's school and school and purpose are closely linked: why study at a school that focuses entirely on martial pursuits to become a negotiator in court, or vice versa? Samurai strive for excellence in everything they do.

But samurai will also do whatever their lord requires of them. In the current lore, Shinjo Altansarnai sends Utaku Kamoko to the imperial court to inform the emperor that she won't be marrying the Lion even though Utaku Kamoko has trained at a pure "bushi" school and also Ide Tadaji, the clan's top courtier, is already there. Meanwhile, many Ikoma still consider themselves to be warriors even though theirs is marked as a courtier school. In this edition, roles are not meant to be cut and dry. The roles are meant to show what tasks a lord is most likely to assign a member of that school, but there are many reasons a lord might choose otherwise.

As we've already discussed, starting kits don't make much sense if you look at them as "The character only owns these things".. they should probably be seen more as "The characters has this with them unless the situation demands otherwise".

5 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

But samurai will also do whatever their lord requires of them. In the current lore, Shinjo Altansarnai sends Utaku Kamoko  to the imperial court to inform the emperor that she won't be marrying the Lion even though Utaku Kamoko has trained at a pure "bushi" school and also Ide Tadaji, the clan's top courtier, is already there. Meanwhile, many Ikoma still consider themselves to be warriors even though theirs is marked as a courtier school. In this edition, roles are not meant to be cut and dry. The roles are meant to show what tasks a lord is most likely to assign a member of that school, but there are many reasons a lord might choose otherwise.

That's not the greatest example to choose here. Kamoko was sent solely to deliver the news that the proposed treaty was refused, she was not sent to negotiate or work on an alternative agreement. Moreover, upon her arrival Kamoko went straight to Tadaji, who managed the protocol from then on (deciding to inform the Imperial Herald first, off the record, so the unpleasant surprise would be less surprising). And while the Ikoma courtiers like to style themselves after their famously belligerent founder, they're not asked to perform guard duty, act as yojimbo or serve in the Lion legions.

Yes, a samurai is expected to perform whichever duty his lord tasks him with. Very occasionally that duty might not be completely in line with the samurai's training either. That doesn't change what the samurai has trained for though. The schools may be somewhat flexible - curriculums are not mandatory studies after all, they just show the emphases of the training provided there - but they were more so in previous editions: all skills were "part of the curriculum" for every school.

21 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

As we've already discussed, starting kits don't make much sense if you look at them as "The character only owns these things".. they should probably be seen more as "The characters has this with them unless the situation demands otherwise".

I don't see them as "the character only owns these things" but as "the character certainly owns at least these things". Most kits have items characters will normally not have with them either, unless the situation demands it. Travel packs for instance, or a courtier's bow or a pony.

My definition of a starting kit (otherwise, why is it qualified as "starting") is "this is the stuff you definitely have on you or near you day one when we start the campaign". Assuming your lord has a full coffer and armory, most load you start with can be replaced pretty fast just by talking to somebody, but just because you have a bow on your starting sheet does not mean your bow magically follows you around - you drop it in the woods you don't get a new one until you get back to civilization and can buy one back. Same with your horse, or your attendant. Unless you're a Unicorn, in which case your horse might be magic.

Picking up stuff not physically stuck to your body in a housefire sounds like a great subject for a test, and possible opportunity spent.