6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I haven't lost with Delta/Delta/OGP yet. Haven't flown it in a while, because of that. It's a fairly small sample size, and not always against top-meta lists, but I've beaten Whisper/Rexler/[3rd] twice (some good luck in either case, but that's always part of the game). Most of the games haven't been too close. Last 3-game tournament, I didn't lose a ship. Only one game yet have I lost 2 ships.

Some thoughts:

• Clearly, the capacity of a defender got a massive buff. An extra shield, better upgrade slots, blue banks without upgrades, and the massively useful Boost action.
  • The article cited has a good frame question. Are Defenders too Good to be Viable? I think they're incredibly good. They might be too expensive to use effectively. I kinda think it's more of an open question than settled fact.
  • I think a better example of a "Too Good To Be Viable" ship is the Aggressor. IG-88s have the same price issues as a Defender, but Droid Brain isn't Full Throttle, and they don't have white flip-moves.
• The list (and generic Defenders) are under-rated and slept on. 72 isn't cheap, but my term for them is an Engine of Inevitability. They last a long time, get a lot of modified shots with their K-Turns. It just adds up over time.
  • Another thing bouncing around my head. Since they keep full defenses while K-Turning, I feel like I K-Turn more often on them than I might on something else... There are probably times I could K-Turn on other ships but don't, since I'm a little damage and want to have a focus token to protect myself. So I wind up without a shot as I circle around more slowly. Defenders can just take the direct path, K-Turn and get the tokens.
• I've still never tried any Defender other than a Delta. Haven't seen the need. Just Juke on Onyx/Rexler seems fine, but I'm nervous about the 100-point loaded versions.
• I'd agree with the two folks interviewed on their loadouts. Maybe FCS on a generic (red dice mods, while having double-token for pure defense... nice), Juke if you run the Onyx.
• These seem like the kind of ships with an... upper bound. I think they're great at the store level. I'm not sure they can hang at top tables large tournaments. But I'm also not aware of many folks running them. I have a store championship card... if it's valid somewhere that's Extended, this is what I'll fly. For science, if no other reason.
• If they're too expensive, I don't think they should be made cheaper. Luke Skywalker gunner pays a pretty hefty tax for ease of use. Defenders aren't quite as easy to use, but they're not quite as highly taxed. Defenders feel like a ship which could be oppressive at the casual-night level. I'd rather keep them highly priced for this reason, than bring them to a point where they're high-meta ships in tournaments. I have three main reasons for thinking they're fine where they are.
  • First is that they had a good long time as strong ships in 1e. Imperial Veterans brought them from unplayable to good, but post-IV, they've always been solid ships to just bring. Not always the ones winning major tournaments, but almost always something really decent. An upper bound to their performance, perhaps.
  • Second is that they are... admittedly... a little boring.
    • 4k
    • 4k
    • 4k
    • 4k
    • 4k
    • 4k
    • This is also why the Boost is so great. You can change the angles of your K-Turns, or you can even do a 3-hard into a boost, followed up by another 3-hard the next turn, and you've looped around in a way which is far less boring.
  • Third is that I think the Delta is still totally playable, and possibly most of the other pilots. They aren't S-Tier, but I think they are almost surely at least B-Tier. They're close enough to being good that I don't think they ought to be in the first point adjustment. If Phantoms/Redline/[so much Scum]/Proton Torpedoes get tweaked, made a bit more fair, Defenders might end up being a bit better in comparison. I don't necessarily think they need reductions, but if they come, they ought to be in the second round of adjustments in July-ish or whenever that happens.
    • There are clearly ships which are way more overcosted, which are far less viable than Defenders.

I tend to come down on the 2nd option. Whisper, Redline, Vader crew, etc. are probably a bit underpriced. Defender might be a hair more expensive than it needs to be, but I think it's closer to "correct" than the TIE Phantom.

Interesting point, and thanks for this @theBitterFig could you share with us the details of your Delta,Delta,OGP list? Is it https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v5!s!198:-1,-1,-1:;198:-1,-1,-1:;168:-1,-1,29,-1,-1,-1:&sn=Delta%2CDelta%3BOGP&obs= or another loadout?

And what large tournaments have you won with the list? and what lists did you beat?

I have for a long time argued that the Defender is overcosted*, and overall agree with ( https://midwestscrub.wordpress.com/2018/12/28/tie-defenders-too-good-to-be-viable/ ) - and here I am especially thinking about the Aces.

I am not saying the TIE Defender is bad, if flown by an "experienced defender player"(=who knows how to utilize "Full Throttle") against a rookie at casual game night, the TIE Defender will murder what ever list the rookie brings - but so will MANY other pilots and lists, so I don't really accept that as an argument for the price to be right.

The true test are results form large-scale tournaments, where you face competent players who knows how to understands the weakness of the TIE Defender. In 1.0 I have flown tripple /x7 Defenders, Two /x7 aces + support, /D Ace + Cirpy, and placed in top 30 of large 300+player tournaments, which means when I fly against /x7 I known precisely where I have to be to block your "Full Throttle", and have some aces ready to capitalize on this. And with only "room" for a maximum of two TIE Defenders, well, in 2.0, I have not yet lost to a TIE Defender list. (Which makes me kinda sad).

I dont think the price of the Delta has to go down to the point where you can just fit 3 naked - allthough EVEN 3 Deltas WILL get murded by at least one other legal list I know, but the Delta has to go down 1-3 points so there is room to fit some upgrades or at least bring a more competent 3'rd ship, which is why I am curious about your list. The aces HAS to come down in price without a question.

I would really like some MathWing on this....

* = by overcosted I mean relative to other ships, the argument that the TIE Defender is fine, and that other ships have to go up in prices is just the other side of the same coin.

15 hours ago, prauxim said:

What's the real difference? Cost reference point is somewhat arbitrary, what matters is the defender is behind the curve.

There are ships that produce more firepower while costing less and having the same defense/cost. Its just mathematically behind.

Difference is there’s a heck of a lot more to bring down in price than just the Defender, and mass changes downward have a much larger chance of unlocking a power combo. Much easier to price up trouble spots. Easier to balance. Less to do.

RE: @Sciencius :

Yeah, it's Delta/Delta/OGP(Palp). I didn't have the full list there, since @player3010587 mentioned me and Delta/Delta/Palp in the OP.

As I've said pretty much every time I've discussed this list, I have a small sample size, need to fly against more top-tables-large-tournaments stuff, and that the list might not have legs in large tournaments. I've frequently thrown in a proviso of: "I'm sure there's a reason folks aren't flying this more, but it's doing very well for me." Do you think there's some sort of a 'gotcha' in your post? There isn't.

As to lists I've beat: two Juke Rexler + Choke Me Harder Daddy Whisper + (3rd filler ship), Fenn/Han Falcon/Lando/Jakku, Fenn/Boba/ORP Escape Craft, Boba/Guri. I haven't faced a standard Whisper/Redline list (I did beat a Vader/Soontir/Redline, but it was against a newer player). I haven't faced 4-LOM. I haven't faced well-flown Rebel Torp Alpha. So there's gaps, I've never denied it. The fact that I've never denied it is why the demand for proving my credentials seems odd to me.

Still, I think it kinda matters that it has seldom seemed close. I've lost with other stuff. Haven't lost with Defenders.

Again, I've never made a secret of any of this--never claimed more than small-scale success, or my own experience. So it feels like you're just insulting my X-Wing Community. Calling the folks I've played too weak to matter. Yeah, that really irks me.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Again, I've never made a secret of any of this--never claimed more than small-scale success, or my own experience. So it feels like you're just insulting my X-Wing Community. Calling the folks I've played too weak to matter. Yeah, that really irks me.

Unless you're a well-know X-Wing name, that's generally what happens...sometimes even if one is a well-known X-Wing name. This is also usually done by other people who also aren't well-known X-Wing names. I've been on both sides of that equation and it's kinda dumb. All one can do, from either side, is shrug and say, "I don't believe you" and/or "I don't care if you believe me".

I've seen several posts by @theBitterFig and I really think there was some promotion of the list but at no point did I see any reference to it being the answer against the big lists.

I flew the list and really liked it. I lost, but it wasn't because of the list, I made a few mistakes and most of my experience has been with ships with higher initiative.

There's no right or wrong way to build a list... And if there's something that's working for anyone in their playgroups, they are doing the community a service by posting them.

4 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Difference is there’s a heck of a lot more to bring down in price than just the Defender, and mass changes downward have a much larger chance of unlocking a power combo. Much easier to price up trouble spots. Easier to balance. Less to do.

Sure, maybe, I dunno. That would apply to how to make the defender competitive in the future, assuming FFG wants to (which I doubt)

In the context of the OP topic however, weather the defender is currently underrated, it doesn't really matter.

I hate how nearly every discussion of an under performing ship turns down this rabbit hole of "Is its really 'bad'? Or are the 'good' ships not actually 'good' but only .... UNDERCOSTED?!?!" I came into the thread titled "is this ship good/bad" to talk about a ship being bad , whoops sorry I meant "objectively worse that the ships one can currently use and expect to perform decently at a competitive level", not get into a highly subjective discussion about meta game balance.

6 minutes ago, prauxim said:

In the context of the OP topic however, weather  the defender is currently underrated, it doesn't really matter.

I hate  how nearly every discussion of an under per  forming ship turns down this rabbit hole of "Is its really 'ba  d'? Or are the 'good' ships not actually 'good' but only .... UNDERCOSTED?!?!" I came into the thread titled "is this ship good/bad" to talk about a ship being bad , whoops sorry I meant "objectively worse that the ships one can currently use and expect to perform decently at a competitive l  e  vel", not get into a highly subjective discu  ssi  on a  bout meta game balance.     

Underrated is a question on whether the ship is good but most people dismissing it. It’s likely not going to have much discussion of value since people have already (rightly or wrongly) dismissed it and won’t listen to anecdotes of others.

As to the cost being the discussion point, value is a big factor in whether a ship is good. The ship may be trash compared to the performance of another but if the cost is accurate to its own capabilities then it may still be worth adding to a list.

The Defender is a monster, and you would get few arguments that would say otherwise. It’s a very good ship. The only discussion related to the OP is whether it’s a good value. So the armchair game designers are hard at work... I have the opinion that many don’t look at the game as a whole and instead try to balance only what they like against what is currently good in the meta.

2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Underrated is a question on whether the ship is good but most people dismissing it. It’s likely not going to have much discussion of value since people have already (rightly or wrongly) dismissed it and won’t listen to anecdotes of others.

As to the cost being the discussion point, value is a big factor in whether a ship is good. The ship may be trash compared to the performance of another but if the cost is accurate to its own capabilities then it may still be worth adding to a list.

The Defender is a monster, and you would get few arguments that would say otherwise. It’s a very good ship. The only discussion related to the OP is whether it’s a good value. So the armchair game designers are hard at work... I have the opinion that many don’t look at the game as a whole and instead try to balance only what they like against what is currently good in the meta.

Lol what are you talking about. Good/bad implies good/bad value. No one is trying to talk about a ships quality independently of cost, that would just be silly.

What I'm talking about, whenever a discussion of a ship being good or bad, you always get something like this posted:

22 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Is the Defender overpriced or is it the other dominant Imperial toys currently underpriced?

This thread is a discussion about weather maybe the defender has been unfairly lumped in with the bad (lower value) ships, perhaps because people have been flying/outfitting it incorrectly, in the present tense.

When someone says "it's overpriced" they are simply saying that the categorization of "bad" is fair, e.g. "its costs too much for what is compared to other ships, it's correct to consider it bad", and therefore defender is in fact not overrated. This is meaningful, on-topic discussion.

However statements like "maybe its fine other ships are just undercosted" is a different discussion discussion entirely. It doesn't contribute anything to the topic at hand and only serves to derail conversation.

23 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Is the  Defender overpriced or is it the other dominant Imperial toys currently underpriced?

A question to seriously look at hard.

The simple answer to that is yes 😂

11 minutes ago, prauxim said:

"maybe its fine other ships are just undercosted" is a different discussion discussion entirely. It doesn't contribute anything to the topic at hand and only serves to derail conversation.

Points changes are inbound. If the Defender is not being seen on top tables, it is because something else is there. If that changes, and it will, then at current values, the Defender could be seen more. Because it is a good ship at its current level.

Is it good for it's points now, compared to those things? Of course not, or it would be everywhere. But those things will change their value, so it's very relevant.

It has derail tendencies, obviously, but it has to be considered.

I think a lot of people that run Defenders feel like they are very good, compared to 95% of stuff.

32 minutes ago, prauxim said:

When  someone says "it's overpriced" they are  simply saying that the categorization of "bad" is fair, e.g. "its costs too much for what is compared to other ships, it's correct to consider it bad", a  nd therefore defender is in fact not overrated. This is meaningful, on-topic discussion.

However statements like "maybe its fine other ships are just undercosted" is a different discussion discussion entirely. It doesn't contribute anything to  the topic at hand and only serves to derail conversatio  n

I see what you’re saying but it’s a very narrow interpretation of my statement on the current meta being a factor is off-topic.

That said, we’re arguing semantics when you could have just ignored my post altogether.

22 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Points changes are inbound. If the Defender is not being seen on top tables, it is because something else is there. If that changes, and it will, then at current values, the Defender could be seen more. Because it is a good ship at its current level.

Is it good for it's points now, compared to those things? Of course not, or it would be everywhere. But those things will change their value, so it's very relevant.

It has derail tendencies, obviously, but it has to be considered.

I think a lot of people that run Defenders feel like they are very good, compared to 95% of stuff.

The thing which I keep coming back to is there are different levels of good ships.

TIE Defender isn't a top-tier ship. It's probably a bit overpriced. But it's still also very powerful. I don't think anyone denies that the TIE Defender is a potent ship.

There's a lot of other overpriced ships which aren't powerful. RZ-1 A-Wings, Scyks, TIE Aggressor, TIE Advanced x1. Heck, TAP v1s, too, but at least they've got the force so they're unique for the time being, and uniqueness counts for something.

Underrated? I say underrepresented, of course you won't see any TIE defenders on the table for worlds unless a certain format opens up.

6 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Underrated? I say underrepresented  , of course you won't see any TIE defenders on the table for worlds unless a certain format opens up.

More like overrepresented. 67 defenders taken to major (100+) tourneys, exactly 1 made the cut. Empirically, it has the highest certainty of being bad of any ship in 2.0.

But they look so cool!

On 1/3/2019 at 3:46 PM, HolySorcerer said:

A defender is going to cost 40-50% of your whole list and brings three red dice to the table. That is a lot of weight to pull for a small ship with a predictable dial.

Are defenders just overcosted T-70s?

On 1/4/2019 at 4:59 PM, theBitterFig said:

RE: @Sciencius :

Still, I think it kinda matters that it has seldom seemed close. I've lost with other stuff. Haven't lost with Defenders.

Again, I've never made a secret of any of this--never claimed more than small-scale success, or my own experience. So it feels like you're just insulting my X-Wing Community. Calling the folks I've played too weak to matter. Yeah, that really irks me.

RE: @theBitterFig Nobody is insulting your X-wing community, I am afraid that is all inside your head.

Of course there is a difference between winning/going to cut a large 300+ player tournament and winning a few casual games at game night, and this has nothing to do with your local X-wing community.