I have been playing this game for years and I have literally spent thousands of $ into this game.

So why would I be interested in a game mode that ignores 90% of my fleet?

I am pretty sure that the Devs can and will get this game somewhat balanced. Extended and the (newbie?) hyperspace edition.

56 minutes ago, svelok said:

TL;DR - aces are too efficient, and torps are one of the reasons

Proton torps are sort of a problem, but the combo isn't any specific handful of pilots (Redline is busted, but that's sort of almost a different thing), but with high initiative being too efficient in general.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=BgM&a2=BQc&a3=BQM

So, this is what you get from a random torpedo alpha strike list - Wedge/Luke/Thane, I6/5/5, all with Proton Torps. One is double modded (force); shooting into a ship with 2 agility and a focus. For reference, this list currently costs 189 points (with nothing else).

If you're taking generics, they're moving after you to get a lock, and shooting before you to deny you return shots. There's an 80% chance one of your 4 generic X-Wings or whatever dead before they shoot, 25%+ of your firepower off the field immediately. Even if we're talking a full swarm of Z-95s, it's **** close to killing two of them anyways, and you move first so if you brought missiles they're not going off.

If you thought you were a cool kid, and brought 4 Blue Squadron Escorts with Torps, because surely the generics are more efficient in a pure joust... you were wrong, because you lost one already, so this round you're just throwing 3x 3 dice w/ focus (70% chance Thane/Wedge survive, way higher for Luke). And next round you're in range to take your locks, but then the aces take another one off the table at I5, so now you're throwing two torp shots , and either finishing off the ace you wounded the turn before or starting to work on a second, but that's basically as far as you're getting and if you left Luke for last he now basically never dies and can solo you naked (even though he won't have to, because there's half a Thane or Wedge left who still shoots before you).

So obviously this is a contrived situation, and not exactly a tournament winning list. The point, though, is that the aces with proton torps are more efficient than the generics! Like, that's insane, right? The whole point of generics is meant to be efficiency, but the aces who also move last, have abilites, and shoot first, are better at it!

It's a pretty similar story with other random generics (krayt thread discussing X-Wings and Soontir/Redline/Whisper vs TIE /sf here and vs TIE Strikers a bit after that). And it's not like the points increase required to banish it is oppressive - this random example is at 189, so making Torps cost 3 points more would make it strictly illegal. Upping the aces would accomplish the same thing, while also making them less efficient in non-torpedo circumstances and other builds. Taking the torps out of that list reduces its odds of alpha-striking one of the XXXX list off the table by half , to 40%.

Thanks! That’s a great explanation overall. I think that it’s difficult for many people to conceive of how busted some of these things are until you realize that none of the players you know have been playing it in the most broken way possible.

An anecdote: I was at a kit tournament last weekend in my parents hometown and played against a guy with Redline, and he boosted into two target locks. I’m the only imperial player locally and never thought to boost into a double lock, so we argued about it for a minute before I realized he was flying it in a different (but still busted, and correct) manner. I think a lot of non-competition players think ships and upgrades are fine because they’re not on the receiving end of so many ‘feels bad man’ moments.

4 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

I have been playing this game for years and I have literally spent thousands of $ into this game.

So why would I be interested in a game mode that ignores 90% of my fleet?

I am pretty sure that the Devs can and will get this game somewhat balanced. Extended and the (newbie?) hyperspace edition.

I mean, after spending thousands of dollars, arguably 90%+ will always be ignored in a standard game (200 pts). I’m somewhere around a thousand dollars in, but I’m excited for first order Hyperspace because it’ll be fun and engaging?

5 hours ago, william1134 said:

What a load of rubbish. I am not a fan of hyperspace and I would be highly disappointed if "extended" was largely ignored by the developers. I have spent quite a bit of money on the conversion kits and it is unacceptable for it to be abandoned.

I am not a fan of hyperspace and I would be highly disappointed if "epic" was largely ignored by the developers. I have spent quite a bit of money on the huge ships and it is unacceptable for it to be abandoned.

Aw, f***.

Which actually just goes to show that FFG does not care if you are getting to play with all of your ships.

1 minute ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I mean, after spending thousands of dollars,  arguably 90  %+ will always  be ignored in a standard game (200 pts). I’m somewhere around a thousand dollars in, but I’m excited for first order Hyperspace because it’ll be fun and engaging? 

I can still choose to play any of the hundreds of ships

Not at the same time of course.

I don't think it would be a good idea to reduce the fleet of the rebels to "just X-Wings" and the Imperials to "just Tie Fighters" in order to get everything perfectly balanced.

And you should never punish your old fanbase, which has already invested into your business model. These guys are most probably the ones would spend another 1000 dollars, if they feel they're getting a good deal and fun for their investment.

The hyperspace newbie? We can't tell yet.. he might become a hardcore fan, but he could very well stay away after flying his 3 X-Wings a couple of times.

Just give me my big tournments with ALL ships. That's what I clearly want. Stating that here, so hopefully some FFG officials will read that.

5 hours ago, william1134 said:

What a load of rubbish. I am not a fan of hyperspace and I would be highly disappointed if "extended" was largely ignored by the developers. I have spent quite a bit of money on the conversion kits and it is unacceptable for it to be abandoned. 

Thanks so much, dude!

Exactly!

8 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

And you should never punish your old fanbase, which has already invested into your business model. These guys are most probably the ones would spend another 1000 dollars, if they feel they're getting a good deal and fun for their investment.

Epic proves your theory wrong.

11 minutes ago, mcintma said:

Respectfully  disagree - you have  to consider what is/is not available to the faction wh  en balancing the ships, so you are  bal  ancing a faction (what my  riad com  b  os it can put on the table as a sq  uad)  vs. each other faction. Regen or Selfless/Biggs   in  Soont  ir or W    hisper lists might be a prob, for ex.  

The unit of balance should be the squad though, as in what can be put on the table together. There is no point balancing for the brokenness that would be Vader+Whisper+Rexler because it can't be played together. Or a Vader crew+Vader pilot combo.

The possible squad is what's important.

That might lool like pointless semantics but it's not. The difference highlights how certain parts become must-includes, and how they force usage of certain ships to get access to undercosted uprades - in this example proton torps.

A TIE swarm could not care less whether proton torps was rebels only or not.

Drunk forum

2 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

I can still choose to play any of the hundreds of ships

Not at the same time of course.

I don't think it would be a good idea to reduce the fleet of the rebels to "just X-Wings" and the Imperials to "just Tie Fighters" in order to get everything perfectly balanced.

And you should never punish your old fanbase, which has already invested into your business model. These guys are most probably the ones would spend another 1000 dollars, if they feel they're getting a good deal and fun for their investment.

The hyperspace newbie? We can't tell yet.. he might become a hardcore fan, but he could very well stay away after flying his 3 X-Wings a couple of times.

Just give me my big tournments with ALL ships. That's what I clearly want. Stating that here, so hopefully some FFG officials will read that.

As a business model, they have to worry about future purchases, notwithstanding your investments. And you got your content for Extended - they made it clear that they’re welcoming whatever variant rules people want to play, as tournaments are ruled (in absolute terms, via the RR) by whatever the Marshall says. Locally, play whatever you want! But that doesn’t mean the rest of us should have constrained balance in the sanctioned formats...

7 hours ago, Dreadai said:

I’ve seen a lot of folk talking about the balancing points changes coming this month, and a few noisy community voices talking about what points need to go up up up (punishers, bombers, quadjumpers, Palob, Han gunn...aw heck - all scum)

but I am reminded of the early days of 2.0 hype when Alex, Frank and Max were doing web videos they said that points changes would be used to cause shifts in the meta of what was nd wasn’t played.

  The extended game will never be balanced. To expect that is ludicrous. I’m hoping the developers target their energy into getting hyperspace where it should be rather than flogging the dead horse that is extended.

That was a sad and confusing post...

...but yeah, I would not expect massive changes. This is FFG. They like to take it slow.

But Extended is doing just fine.

9 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

But Extended is doing just fine.

lol

2 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

lol

No please, do explain.

Maybe a little deeper than likening it to a dead horse?

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The unit of balance should be the squad though, as in what can be put on the table together. There is no point balancing for the brokenness that would be Vader+Whisper+Rexler because it can't be played together. Or a Vader crew+Vader pilot combo.

The possible squad is what's important.

That might lool like pointless semantics but it's not. The difference highlights how certain parts become must-includes, and how they force usage of certain ships to get access to undercosted uprades - in this example proton torps.

A TIE swarm could not care less whether proton torps was rebels only or not.

Yes, in fact I agree the "possible squad" is the bottom-line unit of balance. I was just saying you have more good "possible squads" the more good upgrades your faction has available to it. So faction-locked broken stuff is somewhat more egregious IMO than 'anyone-can-take-this' this broken stuff - but of course both are bad (as you say, the TIE swarm player is sad). As I said I could see protorps up `1 point.

17 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

No please, do explain.

Maybe a little deeper than likening it to a dead horse?

It’s busted. Irretrievably so. Points adjustments aren’t going to save the day. All they will do, AT THE VERY BEST is quash some current power lists so that some other degenerate combo can surface. There are too many cards to effectively balance extended, all FFG have done is to produce a handy bridge format that introduces us to v2 concepts and let’s us play with all of our toys. Fine for casual play but absolute nonsense for competitive play.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Epic proves your theory wrong.

I have still got hope, that there will be Epic coming, too. There should be!

Epic is really good for a change with a LOOOOT of ships and I would love to fly my Cr90 Corvette again!

1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

It’s busted. Irretrievably so. Points adjustments aren’t going to save the day. All they will do, AT THE VERY BEST is quash some current power lists so that some other degenerate combo can surface. There are too many cards to effectively balance extended, all FFG have done is to produce a handy bridge format that introduces us to v2 concepts and let’s us play with all of our toys. Fine for casual play but absolute nonsense for competitive play.

You're being a drama queen. It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

4 hours ago, Naerytar said:

You're being a drama queen. It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

I agree here. Absolutely.

I haven't been to many extended tournament yet. But what I see in our weekly evenings is that extended is diverse and fun to play.

it's your game. play what you want. if it's just you and buddies adjust the points yourself, change up the slots, it's your game. do what you want.

Competitive circuit will be what it is. and you either do it or you don't

7 hours ago, Dreadai said:

It’s busted. Irretrievably so. Points adjustments aren’t going to save the day. All they will do, AT THE VERY BEST is quash some current power lists so that some other degenerate combo can surface. There are too many cards to effectively balance extended, all FFG have done is to produce a handy bridge format that introduces us to v2 concepts and let’s us play with all of our toys. Fine for casual play but absolute nonsense for competitive play.

Before going all in on the walls are caving in theory can we at least wait until two weeks after the first points adjustment? So we can see how thier new strategy to balance the game is going? Alex and gang believe two formats, cards without points, the ability to add or subtract slots is a major way they’ll accomplish this.

The sky isn’t falling there are two formats one which has 20 ships equally appropriated. Another format allows everything to be played. They made adjustments to 2.0 to address balance. Let them address it first before it’s declared “busted”...

3 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

Before going all in on the walls are caving in theory can we at least wait until two after the first points adjustment? So we can see how thier new strategy to balance the game is going? Alex and gang believe two formats, cards without points, the ability to add or subtract slots is a major way they’ll accomplish this.

The sky isn’t falling there are two formats one which has 20 ships equally appropriated. Another format allows everything to be played. They made adjustments to 2.0 to address balance. Let them address it first before it’s declared “busted”...

This^

3 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

Let them address it first before it’s declared “busted”...

<sarcasm>But that is less fun </sarcasm >

For as much as everyone expects Hyperspace format to be a revolving door, so to speak, and to essentially take over entirely for competitive play...

Am I the only one that thinks they’ll let Hyperspace grow, so long as the smaller factions have enough ships to stay roughly balanced? I’ve always assumed the goal was to get to the point where it’s all one gametype again, and that gametype is essentially extended.

15 hours ago, william1134 said:

What a load of rubbish. I am not a fan of hyperspace and I would be highly disappointed if "extended" was largely ignored by the developers. I have spent quite a bit of money on the conversion kits and it is unacceptable for it to be abandoned.

\o/ Preach it \o/

FFG made a sucker out of me with 2.0. Now they're flat-out shouting, "SUCKER!"

And I've had enough with the "FFG is a COMPANY and needs NOOBS, so sod off you old-timers!" If your business model is based on alienating a substantial portion of your existing customer base, and trading them for what you HOPE will be the same number or more of noobs, then I would not want to be your accountant.

Come to think of it, this sounds just like what the KK Clan at LFL/Disney has done with TLJ . . . .

11 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

For as much as everyone expects Hyperspace format to be a revolving door, so to speak, and to essentially take over entirely for competitive play...

Am I the only one that thinks they’ll let Hyperspace grow, so long as the smaller factions have enough ships to stay roughly balanced? I’ve always assumed the goal was to get to the point where it’s all one gametype again, and that gametype is essentially extended.

My guess is that you’re not right, for the practical reason that it deprives you of an effective ‘ban’ lever. If something as wretched as TLT ever sneaks into Hyperspace, you can expect that it’ll drop to Extended-only in short order, a la Biohexacrypt codes (that were clearly balanced for First Order, but weren’t even allowed in competitive play for five minutes).

In other words, Hyperspace is another method of future-proofing.