48 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

Plot Device Cannon - 8 dice. You MUST change all HITs to CRITs. Any blank or focus MUST change to HITs. At the compare dice phase, you may then spend as many results as you like up to the defender's evade value to cancel that many defense results.

The ability to cancel evade results with hits? Isn't that what all attacks do?

I use heavy laser cannons often enough that I feel they are fine as is.

I only use ion cannons on Gunboats and IG88-B variants, as it adds a niche way of attacking when you normally wouldn’t attack. Also as more droids enter the game ion becomes more of a meta call so I think they are going to be sitting pretty.

Tractor and Jam I haven’t touched at all, as you are right they aren’t worth loosing the attack and are really only worth it at high initiative.

Here is what I’d do for tractor and jam beams: make beam weapons separate from other cannon weapons. Kind of like bombs and mines.

Beams can have a built in bonus of getting free rerolls based on your primary attack value. So Scyks could reroll 2 dice on all beam attacks (tractor and jam) and Upsilon gets 4.

Maybe that would be too powerful, but you could increase the cost to reflect it. That way though between dealing damage or an orange token you have more incentive to use the beam.

5 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

The ability to cancel evade results with hits? Isn't that what all attacks do?

Yeah... I shouldn't try snark and sarcasm when I'm CRAZY hung over...

okay, that's a lie, I wasn't hung over, i was still drunk >_>

8 hours ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

I agree for the most part and this thread has kinda gone from a fix thread to a wishlist thread as half the cannons listed haven’t been released in 2.0 yet.

As far as 2.0 cannons are concerned

-HLC needs no immediate changes because it is so cheap.

-Ion Cannon could use a points decrease because Ion turrets are a strictly superior option for the price.

-Tractor Beam might be really powerful on a scyk or gunboat , I will have to try it, as you could potentially deny 4 green dice and force a reposition for 3 points on a cheap enough ship it might be worth giving up an attack in a swarm list.

-Jamming Beam needs help though as your benefit is so small for giving up your attack.

I agree that the discussion went from fixing to wishing but I think my statements are still valid. We lost our only R3 turret with the demise of the TLT. There were some very militant anti-tlt post that bordered on the absurd. I've gotten use to the lack of a R3 turret and kind of like it. I hope we don't see its reinstatement in the future.

I also agree that the jamming beam and tractor beam could use some help. I'm not sure what that is but I'll wait to see how the game develops. It might turn out that those two weapons on a yet to be announced platform are really good. Time will tell.

29 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I agree that the discussion went from fixing to wishing but I think my statements are still valid. We lost our only R3 turret with the demise of the TLT. There were some very militant anti-tlt post that bordered on the absurd. I've gotten use to the lack of a R3 turret and kind of like it. I hope we don't see its reinstatement in the future.

I also agree that the jamming beam and tractor beam could use some help. I'm not sure what that is but I'll wait to see how the game develops. It might turn out that those two weapons on a yet to be announced platform are really good. Time will tell.

Speaking of range restrictions, what if we had a weapon that was range 1 and 3 only. Not sure what the reason could be for having the range 2 blind spot, but it would be interesting.

Ooh, are we chatting about the new Canon?

Legendary Canon Cannon

Range 1 - 3 Front Arc

Attack 3

Charge 1 (non-recurring)

When performing this attack, if the Defender has the Legendary condition, you may re-roll 1 die.

If this attack hits a Unique Defender who was not seen or mentioned on-screen in a Star Wars film, you may spend 1 charge to apply the Legendary condition to the Defender.

When a ship with the Legendary condition is destroyed, regain 1 charge.

Legendary

The Mouse got to you.

You're no longer part of the Canon, slime-o!

10 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

Speaking of range restrictions, what if we had a weapon that was range 1 and 3 only. Not sure what the reason could be for having the range 2 blind spot, but it would be interesting.

I can see a missile or torpedo having that restriction. It would work better if we had separate damage dice. Range one would have a lower chance to hit but do more damage from the contact fuse. Range three would have a better chance to hit but lower damage due to a proximity detonation. The range two donut hole could be explained as the stand-off distance where the weapon transitions from a contact detonator to a proximity detonator.

Pretty sure we don't need this though. It's getting into the area of too much fluff and not enough substance. You're right though, it would be interesting.

I was being serious when I said they needed to change the dice mechanic in order to do this.

Much of the new design of upgrades is built around having costs for every effect, and "arcs-matter". And thank Yoda for that much. But the one thing they can't do very well (if at all) still is differentiate between damage power and accuracy. In general this game would have a hard time demonstrating a difference between a 50calMG 5 second burst, and a 30mm AT Rifle single shot. (For the record, my weapons knowledge is minimal and I'm mostly pulling numbers out of a hat) This has been generally agreed upon as the limit of the current combat system. It works. It's tried and true. It's easy to learn, fast to process, and can still be manipulated a bit to do cool things mechanically. But it has hard limits. Like you basically can't let something roll fewer than two(rip Hwk 1.0), or more than five attack dice(Hi Han, hi Dash, we see you) and the defense dice cause too much frustration for some players in general.

My other problem with them that seems to be more present in this edition than last, is that Cannon upgrades seem even more like extra guns duct taped to the hull and less like we took out the old gun and mounted this thing in its place. What guns were mounted on a ship should be as much of it's identity as anything and currently the Four Medium Laser cannons of an X-wing are the same as the Six on the TIE/d. And the same defender had to pay extra to mount the stock ion cannons it was supposed have all along. And somewhere the VCX and Upsilon found a way to put their fixed heavy laser cannons in pivot mounts and super charge them or something because they do crits now.

Credit where due. Torpedoes high explosive factor being represented by a crit mod is clever and simple. Ion attacks always dealing one actual damage and then going over load is clever. HLC never getting crits in exchange for higher damage potential was a good representation.

But when I look at Armada, Imperial Assault, Legion, Destiny, and the RPG... They all have complex dice systems. Force, Mario Party has more complicated dice! So while as much as I'd like to join the discussion on what do you do with points, and slots, and card interaction, I really can't offer any input. Because for me the core mechanics can't even tell apart the base guns from one ship to another, let alone the difference between two guns on the same ship.

My opinion on control, both cannons and Ion Missiles, has actually shifted to positive since 2.0 launch in 2018.

What you're buying, more than control, is that Third red dice.

You are increasing your odds of hitting many 3+ agility targets at all.

The control is often a bonus.

Most 2 attack ships love that increased chance to damage to a token-stacked ace ... even for just 1 point of damage.

Ie. Homing missiles.

2 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

I was being serious when I said they needed to change the dice mechanic in order to do this.

Much of the new design of upgrades is built around having costs for every effect, and "arcs-matter". And thank Yoda for that much. But the one thing they can't do very well (if at all) still is differentiate between damage power and accuracy. In general this game would have a hard time demonstrating a difference between a 50calMG 5 second burst, and a 30mm AT Rifle single shot. (For the record, my weapons knowledge is minimal and I'm mostly pulling numbers out of a hat) This has been generally agreed upon as the limit of the current combat system. It works. It's tried and true. It's easy to learn, fast to process, and can still be manipulated a bit to do cool things mechanically. But it has hard limits. Like you basically can't let something roll fewer than two(rip Hwk 1.0), or more than five attack dice(Hi Han, hi Dash, we see you) and the defense dice cause too much frustration for some players in general.

My other problem with them that seems to be more present in this edition than last, is that Cannon upgrades seem even more like extra guns duct taped to the hull and less like we took out the old gun and mounted this thing in its place. What guns were mounted on a ship should be as much of it's identity as anything and currently the Four Medium Laser cannons of an X-wing are the same as the Six on the TIE/d. And the same defender had to pay extra to mount the stock ion cannons it was supposed have all along. And somewhere the VCX and Upsilon found a way to put their fixed heavy laser cannons in pivot mounts and super charge them or something because they do crits now.

Credit where due. Torpedoes high explosive factor being represented by a crit mod is clever and simple. Ion attacks always dealing one actual damage and then going over load is clever. HLC never getting crits in exchange for higher damage potential was a good representation.

But when I look at Armada, Imperial Assault, Legion, Destiny, and the RPG... They all have complex dice systems. Force, Mario Party has more complicated dice! So while as much as I'd like to join the discussion on what do you do with points, and slots, and card interaction, I really can't offer any input. Because for me the core mechanics can't even tell apart the base guns from one ship to another, let alone the difference between two guns on the same ship.

Theres actually a lot of ships that can reach 6 attack dice, and Rebels can reach 7 attack dice because of Jan Ors in the HWK.(Scum Fenn Rau with advanced proton torpedoes is 6 dice at range 1 actually maybe 7 with trick shot as his pilot ability is not primary only.)

I think base guns should stay simple, allowing cannon/torpedo/missile slots to fulfil the complex unique weapons really allows complex fun secondary weapons to exist because if a secondary weapon has a overpowered interaction with a ship ability, they can simply remove that weapon slot from that ship rather than have a massive balance problem.

Split cannon and beams into sub categories, add rules for beams. Fixed

What FFG should have done we could debate all day, but they are not taking anything here back to the drawing board, at most we will see pricing changes for the various cannon options.

HLC +0, its not great, but its not terrible either, probably fine to leave it where it is right now

Ion -1, a little expensive for a one damage weapon that might add a token, the gunboat also needs to come way down if you want this to see more play

Tractor -1, a niche option that is more attractive the more affordable it is

Jamming -3, the only way this is seeing use is after a hefty discount, absolute trash tier, possibly worst upgrade in the game

On 1/2/2019 at 9:07 AM, ForceSensitive said:

I was being serious when I said they needed to change the dice mechanic in order to do this.

Much of the new design of upgrades is built around having costs for every effect, and "arcs-matter". And thank Yoda for that much. But the one thing they can't do very well (if at all) still is differentiate between damage power and accuracy. In general this game would have a hard time demonstrating a difference between a 50calMG 5 second burst, and a 30mm AT Rifle single shot. (For the record, my weapons knowledge is minimal and I'm mostly pulling numbers out of a hat) This has been generally agreed upon as the limit of the current combat system. It works. It's tried and true. It's easy to learn, fast to process, and can still be manipulated a bit to do cool things mechanically. But it has hard limits. Like you basically can't let something roll fewer than two(rip Hwk 1.0), or more than five attack dice(Hi Han, hi Dash, we see you) and the defense dice cause too much frustration for some players in general.

My other problem with them that seems to be more present in this edition than last, is that Cannon upgrades seem even more like extra guns duct taped to the hull and less like we took out the old gun and mounted this thing in its place. What guns were mounted on a ship should be as much of it's identity as anything and currently the Four Medium Laser cannons of an X-wing are the same as the Six on the TIE/d. And the same defender had to pay extra to mount the stock ion cannons it was supposed have all along. And somewhere the VCX and Upsilon found a way to put their fixed heavy laser cannons in pivot mounts and super charge them or something because they do crits now.

Credit where due. Torpedoes high explosive factor being represented by a crit mod is clever and simple. Ion attacks always dealing one actual damage and then going over load is clever. HLC never getting crits in exchange for higher damage potential was a good representation.

But when I look at Armada, Imperial Assault, Legion, Destiny, and the RPG... They all have complex dice systems. Force, Mario Party has more complicated dice! So while as much as I'd like to join the discussion on what do you do with points, and slots, and card interaction, I really can't offer any input. Because for me the core mechanics can't even tell apart the base guns from one ship to another, let alone the difference between two guns on the same ship.

There is a couple levers left FFG, including one I wish they had used when designing Torpedoes in 2.0 and that is the idea of bonus damage on a successful hit. If Proton Torpedoes for example were a 2 red attacks that added 2 critical damage on a successful hit they would play very differently than they do now. It also would have given more design space for missiles to be more accurate but less damaging.

14 minutes ago, GeneralVryth said:

There is a couple levers left FFG, including one I wish they had used when designing Torpedoes in 2.0 and that is the idea of bonus damage on a successful hit. If Proton Torpedoes for example were a 2 red attacks that added 2 critical damage on a successful hit they would play very differently than they do now. It also would have given more design space for missiles to be more accurate but less damaging.

They could still do the “cancel all results and deal x hits” route for more accurate but less damaging attacks.

It would be cool if cannons were just "on a hit, gain an ion token, jam token, tractor token, a crit, etc

easy fix cannons get range 4....

bit late to the party.

what if you gained a TL on the ship if you dealt damage to it? this could be for all cannons.

The thing that they should have done (which they can't easily go back and do now) is to base the attack dice for a cannon attack from the primary attack of the parent ship...

For example an ion cannon would roll X dice (where x is the primary attack of the ship using the upgrade) whereas a heavy laser cannon would roll X+1 dice.

This would allow variable costing for the cannons which would make them cheaper on Low attack ships without breaking anything.

The other thing they should have done is to allow for linked attacks on some of the cannons (mostly jamming beam) where you get to attack once with the cannon and then follow up with a primary. As it is, it's not even worth equipping the jamming beam at 1 point IMO.

Or release "special" cannon dice pack...Has more crit chances, AND a few double HIT icons...

19 minutes ago, Swedge said:

Or release "special" cannon dice pack...Has more crit chances, AND a few double HIT icons...

No. They thought of doing something similar to force users in 1.0, adding extra focus results. Never made it to the printer and I don’t Blame them

19 hours ago, namdoolb said:

The thing that they should have done (which they can't easily go back and do now) is to base the attack dice for a cannon attack from the primary attack of the parent ship...

For example an ion cannon would roll X dice (where x is the primary attack of the ship using the upgrade) whereas a heavy laser cannon would roll X+1 dice.

This would allow variable costing for the cannons which would make them cheaper on Low attack ships without breaking anything.

The other thing they should have done is to allow for linked attacks on some of the cannons (mostly jamming beam) where you get to attack once with the cannon and then follow up with a primary. As it is, it's not even worth equipping the jamming beam at 1 point IMO.

3-die cannons are already considered mostly useless on 3-die ships. You want to give them less use on 2-die ships as well? An ion cannon with 2 dice is usually just a primary attack that can’t crit, with how little you’ll land the ion.

And heck, Jamming Beam probably isn’t worth the table space even at zero points as it is now.

22 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

3-die cannons are already considered mostly useless on 3-die ships. You want to give them less use on 2-die ships as well? An ion cannon with 2 dice is usually just a primary attack that can’t crit, with how little you’ll land the ion.

And heck, Jamming Beam probably isn’t worth the table space even at zero points as it is now.

The ion cannon wouldn't be any good at 5 points obviously.... if it were scaling off the primary attack then the cost would probably be 1/2/4 for primary attack values of 2/3/4 respectively (I say probably, I'm not sure how balanced those specific point costs are... But you get the idea).

Intruiging topic!

In our local (small casual playing group, Version1) meta. Canons see regular play. Missiles and torpedoes too.

Part is to accept not everything works on every ship for everyone.

One friend shines with A-wings + prockets. For me, A-wings are a deathtrap.

Recently I encountered 2 cheap heavy scyks with tractor-beams. Pulling my ships on asteroids and in front of heavier armed ships.

A lot doesn't work a power-creeped tournament. Don't try fixing it. FFG already tries that for years. Increasing their own difficulties with each new happy expansion.

Tl;dr: Find something that works for you and have fun