I think that Judgement of Verena (Core 49) should be banned. It says: play during your turn. Action: Destroy all units and support cards in each zone with no developments.

The combo with Will of the electors (Core 44; Move up to two target developments from one zone to another controlled by the same player) is unstoppable. No one can fight against that.

What do you think?

For example: Put 3 deveopments in battlefield ( view of orc player)

It is strong but not overpowered. See:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

In actuality it isn't. Smart players playing against Empire start developing early. A rush deck will tear you apart before you can get your combo together. A DE control/discard deck can also have you by Sigmar's gonads before you can pull it off. HE have Disdain, Caradryan. Dwarfs already run a ton of developments. Considering the above linked tournament (first link) as a representative population, and that up to only 3 out of 10 decks had it included, I wouldn't call it overpowered. Strong, yes i'd say, but not overpowered by any means (except against new players - but they quickly catch on to it).

As has been discussed on these forums at length, there are certain Skaven & Orc cards that I, along with others, feel are much closer to be called 'overpowered'. You could have a card that reads 'You win the game", and call it overpowered, but if it requires other cards to work, and can't play both at the same time til turn 4-5 on a consistent basis because you are always killed by a rush deck by that time on a consistent basis or it's always discarded or countered, it's kind of a moot point in that respect.

Well, if you set one development in each zone, then Empirer wastes half of the power of Will fo the electors to clean just one zone, or maybe wastes 2 Will of the Electors. Or maybe have none and then can not play Verenna's and leaves you time to develop all zones. Hola Robert majete.

Not to mention the fact that Judgment of Verena requires units to not have an attachment, so that limits it even further - particularly in light of the recent Battlepack that brought a ton of new attachments into the game.

wait... what? dont understand that last post...

Attachments are not a limit for JoV, actually...

Anyway, I don't see it as an overpowered card...Orcs/Skaven are overpowered...

JoV IS stoppable and even if it does its job, you're not sure to have lost...I survived more than 1 Verena and different oppos survived against a couple of mine...So...

It's a removal...Maybe it can be errata with the "attachment" thing (great idea, Wytefang ) or by adding a couple of Loyalties ehehe

But not banned...

I won a game vs an empire deck where I got "judged" 3 times. Twince it was a two zone burner. I had TONS of devs in my kingdom and kept my kingdom strong, plus I had a good hand, and keep some units in hand just in case, and it payed off.

Also judgement decks are so combo dependent, they REALLY suffer from hand attack decks. My latest DE hand attack deck would have little to fear it. Any fast deck with lots of skaven is way to fast for it. Nah there are worse things in them there woods.

As others have said, if anything is broken, its cross supporting skaven, and even those decks lose enough that its not too bad yet.

Robert Blake said:

Unstoppable.... Actually unstoppable? As in the card High Elfs Disdain doesn't exist? THAT unstoppable? Wow... I see your point. You know, these boards do amuse me on occasion. We've had a number of threads lately on how amazingly overpowered Destruction speed decks are, usually posted by people who've been hammered in turn 2 or 3 without being able to do much. Now we have a thread posted about one of the most fundamental of Order board resets the game has, a combo which people have been using since the core set came out, and apparently this is broken and overpowered too.

I've come to a decision. I want the players who have the "broken and overpowered" speed Destruction decks, to meet the players who dare play the "unstoppable" Judgement+Will combos. I think this meeting should be called a "regional" (this is my idea, completely new!), and to encourage participation, I'd suggest prizes be awarded by FFG for playing in them, though, they might need to charge a little for entry.

You see, I think it is only in this "regional" idea of mine, if played, and data on who's playing what and what wins is collected, that we'd ever have a better idea, as a community of players, which decks consistantly win, and which card combos are broken. As, funny enough I think Bob playing John in their backroom isn't a very valid representation of either the top players of this game, or tournament quality decks in general.

And yes, before you reply, I can beat Judgement+Will decks with both my Destruction decks and my Order decks. Judgement based decks are far, far from unstoppable and unbeatable.

EDIT: Wow, that comment was downright bitchy wasn't it! Remind me to avoid posting in future before I've had my morning coffee!

Judgement is really good, but largely requires you to get lucky via drawing Will of the Electors as well in the crucial window before the opponent gets 3 devs in their key zone (often kingdom or quest). It randomly wins you games regardless of what the players are doing, which I can't say I'm a big fan of from the design point of view.

I've actually had the best luck with Judgement when playing Dwarf or HE boards - I just play with 1 or 2 copies in the deck and no Will of the Electors ('cos Will is a narrow, terrible card). The opponent is often not expecting Judgement in game 1 and then it can be an absolute oh-look-I-just-won blowout. After that, if you have sideboards, side it out or if not, you can just develop it. Play Demolishes as well for best results.

they both are powerful cards there is no doubt, but both my destruction decks don't have a problem with it, my skaven deck usually has them dead by turn 4 at the latest and my dark elf had destruction deck means generally by turn 3 they have no hand left to play anything with.

Playing with a card as bad as Will of the Electors is a significant drawback which should not be overlooked. Clamatius is correct - a miser's Verena or two can be a blowout, especially from a non-Empire board, but building around it (IE, playing an empire board) just telegraphs your strategy to a smart opponent and requires you to play cards that either start or rapidly become dead draws unless you live the double-will Verena dream.

Yes, playing Will + Verena gives you a few percentage points in every matchup. Enough to offset playing dead cards when you don't get a god hand? Not according to our testing, at least in the current cardpool.

Yep, I agree completely.

I think Skaven are the best decks in the current metagame, but there is a roiling pool of pretenders in the not-quite-there-yet-tier-2-space, waiting for a couple more cards. I do not currently have any even vaguely competitive decks that have an Empire board. The Shrine to Taal/City Gates/Pistoliers "combo" deck just doesn't cut the mustard, and a deck using the new Hellblaster Volley Gun is better off starting with a Dwarf board IMHO.

Wytefang said:

Being an Empire player from the beginning, I can attest that it is not overpowered. No, not in the sense that I love the card and I don't want to lose it, but in the sense that I can name many more times I couldn't play it for a real use as opposed to when I could play it. Let me show you.

JoV is a four point card. One will of the electors is another point or a demolition is two. Five or six points for a board clear, yes, awesome, but if you have one development in each zone and I have no will of the electors or demolition, I cannot play Judgement to any effect against you. If you have three developments I would need at least six points to pull it off. Either a judgment and two wills or a demolition and a will which would be seven or eight points (if I don't have any other dwarf cards on the table). After I have paid these six to eight points in resources, what will I put on the table after that that can kill you? Nothing compared to troll vomit (4) spider riders (1) and two choppas (2) for six points of damage. for the same price as that troll vomit combo, I haven't even put down a unit to attack you with.

The key against judgment is the every obvious developments, plus a strong attack against empire resources. I have actually taken Judgment out of my deck at the moment for two reasons. One, the players here have started to play directly against it from the beginning of the game, making it very hard to get one out for much use. Second, I've been able to play one to effect over the past eight to ten games. With Slanesh's(sp?) domination, I've had it played more against me than for me. You want to talk about overpowered cards?.......

I just had a few comments on Will of the Electors. It certainly is not a power card, but it combos well with Verena, and can counter some pretty common cards that I see played frequently. For example, when the opponent plays innovation, you counter with Will and he has plus 0 resources. It can also be used to essentially do 2 direct damage to the capital by moving the xtra hit points he's added to a section. It neuters troll slayers and gors, and can cancel a burn it down as well. It can be used to straight up kill Cold One Chariots, slow down Fellheart, slow down treasure vault (i think that's the name of the card), contested stronghold, armoury, cemetary, Shrine to Taal, forge.... I'm not ready to throw my Will of the Electors into the garbage pile yet.

Sure it's overpowered... just see the tournament reports and the flood of Empire decks with JoV...

Jesus

Where is jesus?????

And why did he play Empire? Maybe the meta in his time wasn't so rush-oriented .

Pretty sure Jesus was playing against Empire.

Yeah, I've taken the Judgments out of my deck too. Play Flames of the Phoenix instead. People will attempt to play around your Judgments, seeing an empire capital, then you surprise them with Flames.

Clamatius said: