Does Nien trigger on multiple stress? If so how many timess?

Nien: "after you receive a stress"
Panicked Pilot: "gain 2 stress tokens"
Sloan: "attacker gains 2 stress tokens"

3 interpretation I've heard:

1. Doesn't trigger, "2 stress" are simultaneous and don't count as "a stress"
2. Triggers once, remove 1 stress. The stress are simultaneous, but "a stress" effectively means "one or more stress"
3. Each stress token is a separate, sequential trigger and Nien can remove both (similar to damage being dealt)

Pretty sure its not #1, either that or a lot of people are playing cards that say "a damage" wrong.

Not sure about 2 vs 3.

Thoughts?

10 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Does Nien trigger on multiple stress? If so how many timess?

Nien: "after you receive a stress"
Panicked Pilot: "gain 2 stress tokens"
Sloan: "attacker gains 2 stress tokens"

3 interpretation I've heard:

1. Doesn't trigger, "2 stress" are simultaneous and don't count as "a stress"
2. Triggers once, remove 1 stress. The stress are simultaneous, but "a stress" effectively means "one or more stress"
3. Each stress token is a separate, sequential trigger and Nien can remove both (similar to damage being dealt)

Pretty sure its not #1, either that or a lot of people are playing cards that say "a damage" wrong.

Not sure about 2 vs 3.

Thoughts?

#3, each stress is assigned individually and triggers the ability.

14 minutes ago, Innese said:

#3, each stress is assigned individually and triggers the ability.

i agree with this and this is how i've been playing it, but i haven't been able to find a source for it in the RR. do you have any examples or clarifications that indicate this is really the way it should work?

22 minutes ago, meffo said:

i agree with this and this is how i've been playing it, but i haven't been able to find a source for it in the RR. do you have any examples or clarifications that indicate this is really the way it should work?

Yeah, personal opinions are just that, without a solid reference then your setting yourself for a heated argument against a salty opponent

31 minutes ago, meffo said:

i agree with this and this is how i've been playing it, but i haven't been able to find a source for it in the RR. do you have any examples or clarifications that indicate this is really the way it should work?

If you think it should not work like that, then there is a rule that clearly say the contrary?

At some point, if there is no counter argument based on RR, then we can assume common sense. And as you said yourself, if dmg are not simultaneous, we can assume thay nothing is so

5 minutes ago, muribundi said:

assume common        sense 

Ah yes, the dark side version of "it's not clear"

4 hours ago, meffo said:

i agree with this and this is how i've been playing it, but i haven't been able to find a source for it in the RR. do you have any examples or clarifications that indicate this is really the way it should work?

The best I can offer is the word of playtesters and the main TO here in Houston.

There's no precedent either way except for how it worked in 1e.

i'm assuming the stress is assigned one at a time, but assuming rules is not how i want to go about playing the game. i want the rules to be clear.

i think the argument for the other side, that both stress are assigned at the same time, is too strong for me to be comfortable with ignoring.

both panicked pilot and admiral sloanes ability are single effects that happen at specific timings (when you recieve the damage card, after a friendly ship is destroyed), so resolving the effect (receive two stress tokens) should be one and the same mechanic (two stress are assigned) rather than separate timings (receive a stress, let what ever trigger, receive another stress).

i know damage is assigned one at a time, but that process is clearly described in the RR. what about conner nets? are the three ion tokens received one at a time or all three at once? spacetug tractor array in bullseye? one tractor token at a time or both at once?

ion cannon, jamming beam and tractor beam clearly assign tokens one at a time, since they inflict tokens instead of damage. the wording is poor, though. inflicting tokens?

i'm assuming one at a time, but it's not stated anywhere. has no one found any mention of this is the rule book or RR?

13 hours ago, muribundi said:

If you think it should not work like that, then there is a rule that clearly say the contrary?

At some point, if there is no counter argument based on RR, then we can assume common sense. And as you said yourself, if dmg are not simultaneous, we can assume thay nothing is so

i think it works like damage, one at a time, but that conclusion is not based on the rules as written. that's why i'm asking for references, if anyone has found them.

the argument for both stress to be assigned at the same time is just as strong. it's just not how things have normally been done in the game, so we're discounting it.

if we should just do what the cards say and the rules say, both stress should be assigned at the same time. two stress. we're doing what the card is not saying, one stress, then one stress.

23 hours ago, prauxim said:

Ah yes, the dark side version of "it's not clear"

When there is no rule that contradict the common sense, you use common sense. Not every rule are common sense, but right now, nothing in this game is simultaneous. So we can apply common sense

1 hour ago, muribundi said:

When there is no rule that contradict the common sense, you use common sense. Not every rule are common sense, but right now, nothing in this game is simultaneous. So we can apply common sense

I think you are overestimating how common sense is. If somethings not clearly spelled out, I expect on the spot guestimates to be all over the map.

Currently the best argument I can make is that we can infer from Fuel Leak that damage doesn't seem to be simultaneous, so probably stress isn't either.

If it goes to a TO that hasn't already spent some time considering the scenario, I give him maybe 60% to agree with my logic, slightly better than a coin flip.

I'm not over estimating anything. When you decide to do a ruling, you have to base it on something. Can you name me one rule where thing are simultaneous in this game ? Can you name me one rule where thing are not simultaneous...

Deciding to make this simultaneous is contrary to the common sense because there is no other example to base this judgement on. This is not a guestimate. Until FFG decide to come out and say it is simultaneous, there is no reason to make it so according to other example in this game.

And there is clear example of "contrary to common sense" in 1st edition. Like The Inquisitor that was all positive and never negative. Like being at range 1 for Authotruster, but not being at range 1 for Fenn or his title...

1 hour ago, muribundi said:

I'm not over estimating anything. When you decide to do a ruling, you have to base it on something. Can you name me one rule where thing are simultaneous in this game ? Can you name me one rule where thing are not simultaneous...

Deciding to make this simultaneous is contrary to the common sense because there is no other example to base this judgement on. This is not a guestimate. Until FFG decide to come out and say it is simultaneous, there is no reason to make it so according to other example in this game.

that's pretty easy. during the planning phase, both players assign maneuvers on their dials for their ships and place them face down in the play area, simultaneously.

during the activation phase, when a proximity mine detonates, two dice are rolled simultaneously.

during the engagement phase, any ships that were destroyed at the current initiative value are removed from the table simultaneously before going on to the next initiative in order.

the tie/fo pilot scorch can spend a lock it has on the attacker and a focus token while it is attacking, to change all of the results to (crit) results. the cost is paid simultaneously.

if we were going to do what panicked pilot and admiral sloane says, we would assign two stress simultaneously. nien could then trigger and use his ability to remove one of the stress tokens, but not both, as described in the section about once per opportunity on page two in the RR.

it's common sense.

2 hours ago, meffo said:

that's pretty easy. during the planning phase, both players assign maneuvers on their dials for their ships and place them face down in the play area, simultaneously.

during the activation phase, when a proximity mine detonates, two dice are rolled simultaneously.

during the engagement phase, any ships that were destroyed at the current initiative value are removed from the table simultaneously before going on to the next initiative in order.

the tie/fo pilot scorch can spend a lock it has on the attacker and a focus token while it is attacking, to change all of the results to (crit) results. the cost is paid simultaneously.

if we were going to do what panicked pilot and admiral sloane says, we would assign two stress simultaneously. nien could then trigger and use his ability to remove one of the stress tokens, but not both, as described in the section about once per opportunity on page two in the RR.

it's common sense.

Then you can do that, why not, if you think these set precedent, you can use this common sense and also do it for the stress token.

But:
No, two dice are not rolled "simultaneously", it is one dice roll described as such in the rules.

For the cost of Scorch, nope, no rule right now state it is simultaneous, a case can be made it is one after then other, in the order stated in the ability.

For the planning phase, no, in fact they are not: "Players can assign their dials in any order." We can assume, that if you place them in any order, you are not doing so simultaneously.

In fact, the word Simultaneous is used for Simultaneous Fire and for this sentence: "The ability queue is used to resolve abilities that would resolve simultaneously." So we can not assume that stuff are simultaneous, it is just inference you do. Ship could may well be removed one after the other if an ability care one of these days

6 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Then you can do that, why not, if you think these set precedent, you can use this common sense and also do it for the stress token.

But:
No, two dice are not rolled "simultaneously", it is one dice roll described as such in the rules.

For the cost of Scorch, nope, no rule right now state it is simultaneous, a case can be made it is one after then other, in the order stated in the ability.

For the planning phase, no, in fact they are not: "Players can assign their dials in any order." We can assume, that if you place them in any order, you are not doing so simultaneously.

In fact, the word Simultaneous is used for Simultaneous Fire and for this sentence: "The ability queue is used to resolve abilities that would resolve simultaneously." So we can not assume that stuff are simultaneous, it is just inference you do. Ship could may well be removed one after the other if an  ability  care one of these days 

i like how open you are to my crazy rules interpretations and examples!

i believe the dice are rolled simultaneously, even though "simultaneous" is a game term only used for simultaneous attacks.

for scorch Static (lol), i think it should be up to the player who controls the ship to decide in what order the tokens are removed. how ever, it's one single ability with three effects, Statics lock token is removed from the ship Static is attacking, a focus token is removed from Static, the attack dice are modified to show all crits. there is nothing indicating paying the cost has to happen in a certain order, since there is no other timing for the cost other than "while you perform a primary attack". it might as well be you remove the lock and the focus at the same time, since it's the same effect.

"Players can assign their dials in any order." we can assume that that if they are placed in any order, they are not placed simultaneously. we can also assume that if you place them in any order, they are placed simultaneously. it's any order.

we cannot be sure ships are removed simultaneously at the end of each initiatives engagement during the engagement phase, no, there is just no indication this wouldn't be the case as of right now. heck, i'd even go so far as to say the first player removes his ships first in any order he so chooses - and then the second player does the same thing. fortunately, it's not very probable that effects will trigger when ships are removed, but rather when they are destroyed, which is a different thing altogether.

the ability queue, yes! it's wonderful! lets place the abilities in the ability queue and see what happens!

nien numb is caught within range one of a proton bomb, he has no shields left and it's the end of activation. the bomb detonates, dealing a faceup damage card to nien numb. he pulls a panicked pilot! what does the card say?
"Gain 2 stress tokens. Then repair this card"

these two abilities are added to the queue.
1. gain 2 stress tokens
2. repair this card

what does nien nunbs ability say?
"After you gain a stress token, if there is an enemy ship in your (front arc) at range 0-1, you may remove that stress token."

the player chooses to add niens abliity to the ability queue. the queue now looks like this:
1. gain 2 stress tokens.
2. "After you gain a stress token, if there is an enemy ship in your (front arc) at range 0-1, you may remove that stress token."
3. repair the panicked pilot card

so lets resolve the queue. nien gains two stress tokens. he removes one if there is an enemy ship in his front arc at range 0-1. the panicked pilot card is repaired.

according to you logic, the queue instead looks like this:

1. gain 1 stress token.
2. "After you gain a stress token, if there is an enemy ship in your (front arc) at range 0-1, you may remove that stress token."
3. gain 1 stress token.
4. "After you gain a stress token, if there is an enemy ship in your (front arc) at range 0-1, you may remove that stress token."
5. repair the panicked pilot card.

which RAW, looks both ridiculous and abusive. it's common sense, though. splitting up abilities and effects to gain an advantage - and doing things in a way that is not stated on the cards and in the rules is common sense.

sorry, i don't mean to be rude, i just can't help going overboard sometimes. no malicious intent. i'm still with you, in fact, since stress tokens have traditionally considered to be gained one at a time, i still think they are. there is just nothing in the rules to support it, which bothers me. a lot.

the wording on his card is horrendous as well "you may remove that stress token." - what do we do when there are several of them? FFG plz!

1 hour ago, meffo said:

i believe the dice are rolled simultaneously, even though "simultaneous" is a game term only used for simultaneous attacks.

You may believe as hard as you wish, it does not make it a rule. Roll of dice is a one event, it is defined in the rules, and again, you have the right to roll one die at a time, it is stated in tournament regulation. But the rule do not use "simultaneous" to describe this, so it can't be used as a base to say token gain should be simultaneous.

Quote

we can also assume that if you place them in any order, they are placed simultaneously. it's any order.

No, we can't, you can't assign one thing at a time and also assign in simultaneously. They are one or they are the other.

Again, you may decide that there is evidence that thing happen simultaneously in the game. But there is no concrete evidence of this. At least there is concrete evidence of not simultaneous thing... How they decide to clarify it, we have no way to know, but until this time, I already know on which side my group will fall

23 minutes ago, muribundi said:

You may believe as hard as you wish, it does not make it a rule. Roll of dice is a one event, it is defined in the rules, and again, you have the right to roll one die at a time, it is stated in tournament regulation. But the rule do not use "simultaneous" to describe this, so it can't be used as a base to say token gain should be simultaneous.

No, we can't, you can't assign one thing at a time and also assign in simultaneously. They are one or they are the other.

Again, you may decide that there is evidence that thing happen simultaneously in the game. But there is no concrete evidence of this. At least there is concrete evidence of not simultaneous thing... How they decide to clarify it, we have no way to know, but until this time, I already know on which side my gro  up will fall

indeed. dice can be rolled one at a time, but can other effects trigger off of dice being rolled before all the dice have been rolled for a single effect? do you have examples of that? because as far as i know, the process of rolling any number of dice for the same effect cannot be interrupted by other game effects.

23 minutes ago, muribundi said:

No, we can't, you can't assign one thing at a time and also assign in simultaneously. They are one or they are the other.

Again, you may decide that there is evidence that thing happen simultaneously in the game. But there is no concrete evidence of this. At least there is concrete evidence of not simultaneous thing... How they decide to clarify it, we have no way to know, but until this time, I already know on which side my gro  up will fall

of course you cannot assign one thing at a time and also assign the same things simultaneously, but it's not one thing at a time, it's in any order.

i will also continue to play as though the stress is assigned one at a time, but i don't think it has sufficient support in the RR, which worries me. i much prefer arguing over this on an online forum than over the board, especially since i think the other side of the argument is much stronger. especially as a TO, i would feel bad about this.

it's simple, really. the text says assign two stress tokens, so two stress tokens should be assigned. not one, then another one, because that's not what the text says should happen.

we're doing something that's not written in the rules. that's not good.

I have a slightly different question regarding the timing on nien's ability and admiral sloan.

Nien shoots and destroys a ship in arc at range 1 (opponent has sloan on table within range to trigger ability). When does the stress get applied to nien and when does the ship get removed from the table?

Option 1:

Sloan assign stress first before ship is removed, nien's ability triggers to remove stress

Option 2:

Ship is destroyed first, removed from table, and then apply the stress. Nien no longer has any ship in arc at range 0-1 and therefore takes the stress.

Thoughts ?

2 hours ago, Isophane said:

I have a slightly different question regarding the timing on nien's ability and admiral sloan.

Nien shoots and destroys a ship in arc at range 1 (opponent has sloan on table within range to trigger ability). When does the stress get applied to nien and when does the ship get removed from the table?

Option 1:

Sloan assign stress first before ship is removed, nien's ability triggers to remove stress

Option 2:

Ship is destroyed first, removed from table, and then apply the stress. Nien no longer has any ship in arc at range 0-1 and therefore takes the stress.

Thoughts ?

At the end of the initiative in which Nien's target was destroyed just before it is removed.

@Isophane Option 1 is correct.

Sloane triggers when a ship is destroyed (a term that means when it receives damage cards in excess of its hull value). A destroyed ship is not removed right away, however. It stays on the table until the end of the initiative bracket. Even if Nien Nunb were the last (or only) Init-5 ship to attack that turn, there's still the Aftermath combat step to go through, before you get to the point where any ships would be removed. This gives Nien ample time to shrug off the stress.

EDIT: The above may all be wrong...!

No.

Sloane triggers after an attack.

NOT when the ship is destroyed, after the attack that destroys it.

7 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No.

Sloane triggers after an attack.

NOT when the ship is destroyed, after the attack that destroys it.

Hmm. Good point. So the question is, does Nien have time to strip the stress, before the ship is removed? Obviously, if there's another ship at his Initiative that hasn't engaged, it works... but if Nien is the last ship to fire...?

Now, I think I would argue that no, he can't remove the stress, in the case that Nien is the last Init-5 ship to attack. For the ability queue, the whole sequence happens after the attack (including the Aftermath step). Game Effects (removing a destroyed ship) trump Card Abilities (Sloane's stress, followed by Nien's removal).

Personally, I think the proper timing for Sloane is the Aftermath step, first subsection: defending player triggers non-attack abilities with "after defending" triggers. As such, this is still during Nien's overall attack, and even if he's the last ship at that initiative step, the Defender hasn't been removed yet and Nien's ability can trigger (presuming range/arc, etc).