Partitioning in Game Design: When less actually is more
Good topic. A few thoughts.
Part of it is that those partitions were introduced with the game. Magic always had colors, most wargames begin with particular factions, etc..., so the player base conceptualizes the game as having those divisions, while the partitioning they push back against is divisions that are added later, they break to framework of how the game is “supposed” to be in the players mind, and so they reject it. Whereas adding a new partition at the same level as existing ones, like adding a new faction, is just expanding the game, not dividing it.
The other thought i had was how, if continued long enough, creates increasing levels of partitioning. In your Warmahordes example, you have the primary partitions of faction, and then a secondary partition of theme within the faction, allowing PP to introduce a new unit to the Legion of Dawn more easily because there is less competition in the LoD for particular roles. Great. If things proceed long enough, even that space starts to become more crowded and they need to create tertiary partitions because even the theme levels have become so crowded. In 40k this can be seen in space marine armies, which are technically part of the imperium, but needed to be their own faction. Then they needed specific chapters of space marines to be separate factions. Then each of those needed specific theme within the chapter. And so on.
Privateer recently relaunched their old game monsterpocalypse. The original game had 6 “agendas”, each of which initially had 1, later 2 “factions” in it that people could play. With the relaunch they have trimmed that down to only 2 agendas and all the monsters and units are divided up among those two, with the factions being more theme style forces. If the game continues to grow, I fully expect them to, sooner or later, reorganize things and reinstate the original agendas.
2 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:Good topic. A few thoughts.
Part of it is that those partitions were introduced with the game. Magic always had colors, most wargames begin with particular factions, etc..., so the player base conceptualizes the game as having those divisions, while the partitioning they push back against is divisions that are added later, they break to framework of how the game is “supposed” to be in the players mind, and so they reject it. Whereas adding a new partition at the same level as existing ones, like adding a new faction, is just expanding the game, not dividing it.
The other thought i had was how, if continued long enough, creates increasing levels of partitioning. In your Warmahordes example, you have the primary partitions of faction, and then a secondary partition of theme within the faction, allowing PP to introduce a new unit to the Legion of Dawn more easily because there is less competition in the LoD for particular roles. Great. If things proceed long enough, even that space starts to become more crowded and they need to create tertiary partitions because even the theme levels have become so crowded. In 40k this can be seen in space marine armies, which are technically part of the imperium, but needed to be their own faction. Then they needed specific chapters of space marines to be separate factions. Then each of those needed specific theme within the chapter. And so on.
Privateer recently relaunched their old game monsterpocalypse. The original game had 6 “agendas”, each of which initially had 1, later 2 “factions” in it that people could play. With the relaunch they have trimmed that down to only 2 agendas and all the monsters and units are divided up among those two, with the factions being more theme style forces. If the game continues to grow, I fully expect them to, sooner or later, reorganize things and reinstate the original agendas.
I agree with Monpoc, my best guess, looking at the release schedule, was that releasing suffcient models to allow 6 or so factions to all have interesting options was simply going to be inviable with available resources, but I wouldn't be surprised if they put stricter limitations later.
4 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:...
I actually agree with the premise and much of the thought in this post. I also love the detailed examples in use throughout.
I do think though that it misses (or doesn't weigh heavily enough) the things people don't like about Hyperspace. The assumption for the players that are fighting Hyperspace is they will have to play it. Now with that as a given there are a lot of casual and semi serious players that only like 1 or 2 factions, a specific set of ships, or specific archetypes and they are losing the ability to play the things they enjoy (or potentially even the ability to play at all if they only own a small number of ships that are no longer legal). This is further compounded by the sunk cost of buying the ships initially and more importantly the cost of converting them. So with that and the initial post in mind (that increased partitioning increases options), maybe the correct problem was identified but the wrong solution developed.
I think about the need for partitioning and about lots of talk about encouraging Scum themes like Hutt Cartel, Black Sun, Bounty Hunters etc... what if the solution instead of a ban list was just to further break apart the large factions either into isolated sub-factions or themes where you had to pay a point penalty if all of your ships weren't of a theme. Since Empire is what I know best here is an example of how it could be done:
Early Empire: TIE Fighters, TIE Strikers, TIE Reapers, TIE Advanced v1, (and maybe another ship, upgrades would be things like Krennic etc...)
Main Empire: TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, TIE Bombers, TIE Advanced x1, Lamda Shuttle (Darth Vader, and Emperor Palpatine crew cards would be here)
Imperial Skunkworks: TIE Defenders, TIE Phantoms, TIE Punishers, Alpha-Class Starwings, Decimators (appropiate upgrades)
I am sure something similar could be done with Rebels as well. That way no actual chassis is banned, but some of the power combos are broken up and you get some additional comparable options. You could easily break apart pilots as well. Saw's Raiders being separate from the other Rebel groups being one part. Maybe make Inferno Squadron a part of the Imperial Skunkworks instead of the other sub-factions.
In short, I think the OP correctly identifies the problem, and does a good job of explaining what it causes and possible solutions. I just don't think FFGs solution is a good one.
Edited by GeneralVrythi think the biggest reason 'some' ppl are anti hyperspace is because it doesn't let them fly what they like to fly.
another potential negative is it restricts how they can qualify for the top tier events. its too simplistic to say 'just play extended' because half of the qualifying events will be hyperspace format... what if there is only a hyperspace event in your local area? Your hands are tied - you either conform to hyperspace or you dont play in the event.
I think if theyd opened up the options of ship available a little more, they would have gotten fewer negative responses. I realize this would have created an unbalance with the newer factions (initially).
FFG want u to buy their new toys. Making them playable in hyperspace right away sells their product. For this reason hyperspace was likely created for new players entering the game. Same old story. Existing players either buy the new ships or play extended OR play Hyperspace.
Edited by Da_Brown_BomberI don’t care in the slightest about “organized play”, so I haven’t been paying any attention to the hyperspace format, but the impression I got was that it was a limited format designed to put veterans who converted large collections and new players just buying 2.0 packs on the same competitive footing, so as to not scare away new players, and that it would be gradually expanded as more packs are updated to 2.0 until there isn’t really much of a difference between hyperspace and standard.
Hyperspace so far plays with slightly less of the stuff thats not fun available, even though some of it will still need to be dealt with via adjustments. So I kinda like hyperspace. But both are fine. Play whatever.
Edited by Boom OwlPartitioning in printed media makes sense. The whole reason for Type 1 was because of all problems associated with power creep and oversaturation of the pool. The issue I have is partitioning in a digital medium. The whole point of an online digital medium is you can make corrections thus removing the need for partitioning.
I know this argument fell on deaf ears in the Hearthstone community but when the discussion of formats came along I was against it for many reasons. One is they were already able to make changes to the cards in the game, increasing the cost, altering the stats, removing or adding a trait. Anything that was overpowered could easily be corrected. Also on the digital medium a type 2 would naturally be made in a sequel. In Hearthstone 2 you can't import your collection from Hearthstone 1, everything would have to be reset, and your collection start from new. When Hearthstone introduced the new formats, it made the card packs (which were the embryotic stages of the loot box we now know and despise) have an expiration date. After a year, everything you had bought would become worthless. Sure there is the wild format but it is also under the auspicious of the official format with all the core cards being nerfed to make room for the new sets.
Needless to say, I left Hearthstone because of rotating partitions, and I know I wasn't the only one. Hearthstone is fine because it is an online game thus you only need power and an internet connection and with enough players it is okay. It is much more difficult to set up a table top game than play an online. segmenting it off will do more to split and hurt the community than to help it, and table top games are more vulnerable to splitting the player base than online games. The draw behind 2nd edition was we still had our ships from 1st edition we can play with. Take that away, then why even bother?
4 hours ago, Forgottenlore said:I don’t care in the slightest about “organized play”, so I haven’t been paying any attention to the hyperspace format, but the impression I got was that it was a limited format designed to put veterans who converted large collections and new players just buying 2.0 packs on the same competitive footing, so as to not scare away new players, and that it would be gradually expanded as more packs are updated to 2.0 until there isn’t really much of a difference between hyperspace and standard.
IHMO, I think this is how Hyperspace is being "sold" to the old timers right now.
I would not be surprised one bit to find that it evolves into a rotation of a handful of curated ships per faction that are played for a single season and then selectively stirred and strained for the next.
It has all the advantages FFG needs: tweak/refresh the meta, balance the meta, and sell new ships. In the long run "XWM Meta" = "Hyperspace."
The only downside is players complaining they can't play Ship X. Except the official response can be: "Sure you can. There's Extended." Or, the 2.0 conversion process will drag on so long people will have forgotten the Auzituck (random victim on my part) ever existed, and no one will really complain at all.
Edited by Darth Meanie