Hi, I have a player who hordes XP, whether it's reluctance to spend points, laziness or whatever. The game is built to allow this, which is fine since it can cost a fair amount of XP to upgrade rings, for example.

I've been mulling over creating a new condition called "self trained or untrained, and novice" to help mitigate the between sessions spontaneous learning of novel abilities characters never previously expressed any interest in learning, studying, or practicing. Still, I figure the PCs have earned their experience, so can use it how they see fit, but with some consequences.

Mechanically, I think it's fair for the TN to increase by 2 for the use of recently purchased skills or techniques that have been acquired without the use of long/downtime narrative scenes or suitable practice. This condition would go away for that skill or technique roll (or be reduced to only +1TN, gaining the "novice" condition instead) if a check exceeds the adjusted TN by 2. This condition would also be removed if the character used a long downtime narrative scene to obtain training from someone with a higher rank in that skill, or higher school rank (for kata, shuji, etc) if they know that technique and have permission to train others of course.

Am I micromanaging too much? Does this seem fair? How do you handle this scenario in your game? Any thoughts are appreciated!

I was also thinking that failing the roll by 1 or 2 because of the condition should result in gaining a void point, encouraging the learning process and not discouraging characters from learning new things, but I feel this blurs the line between conditions and disadvantages a bit.

I don’t know... that feels overly punitive. TN increase is kind of a big deal in this edition.

If you’re concerned about magically obtained abilities that pop up mid fight, it’s better to just restrict when PC can spend xp to downtime scenes only.

I gotta be honest, this is a horrible house rule. Like, if a GM introduced this in a game I was playing, I would quit within a few sessions. First off, an increase of 2 means that an untrained character just became worse at whatever he's trying to do. Consider a TN of 2. With no skill, using his best ring of 3, a character's odds are still okay. Not great, but worth a try.

If we add a skill die and increase the TN by 2, we just screwed him over. He cannot succeed without explosive successes, and even those aren't a guarantee.

It's also unnecessary. If a character drops XP into a skill or ability, that means he has been practicing that skill or ability, whether he's mentioned it or not. Why wouldn't it come up? Well, because that's boring, and because there's nothing wrong with a fictional character learning retroactively.

"Hey, when did you learn that sword technique? I've never seen you do that!"

"Oh, remember when those ronin ambushed us? I've been getting up early to practice in the dojo ever since! "

"I've been reading Akodo's Leadership again. I'm finding so much more insight as an adult than I did when I was twelve."

"I know I said I've been getting drunk at the sake house every night, but actually, there's an old man there who is amazing at Go. I haven't had a drink in weeks!"

If you need to pump the brakes on character advancement, just limit characters to one rank of a particular skill per session. Maybe one Ring increase per session as well. This way a PC can't jump from unskilled to amazing in one go, but they could branch out in several directions at once.

4 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

Well, because that's boring, and because there's nothing wrong with a fictional character learning retroactively.

"Hey, when did you learn that sword technique? I've never seen you do that!"

"Oh, remember when those ronin ambushed us? I've been getting up early to practice in the dojo ever since! "

"I've been reading Akodo's Leadership again. I'm finding so much more insight as an adult than I did when I was twelve."

"I know I said I've been getting drunk at the sake house every night, but actually, there's an old man there who is amazing at Go. I haven't had a drink in weeks!"

This. I've no problem with saying "you can only spend XP between adventures" (rather than just sessions) or else requiring you to come up with a credible way you've learned something (getting beaten by a ronin and then choosing to buy the specific iaijutsu cut kata she used to hand you your backside seems fair, for example).

But yes, gaining a skill rank and facing a +1TN increase generally leaves you worse off than you were if you were unskilled.

That said, I can see a situation where someone might be 'saving up' for a technique and only have 1XP or 2XP to spend of the required 3. That's not the same as "I have XP and refuse to spend it", though, and since a technique only ever costs 3XP, it's not like it can ever take you that long to save up.

Force & Destiny had a concept called 'learning as you go' which is not a million miles from what you describe (it added difficulty dice to ability checks pro-rata-ed to the proportion of the cost of the advance you'd actually paid for) for someone not able to afford the full XP cost of an ability (although it should be noted that the Star Wars RPG can have end-of-career techniques costing four or five times what an ability costs when starting out, something that doesn't translate across to L5R)

On 1/3/2019 at 7:50 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

But yes, gaining a skill rank and facing a +1TN increase generally leaves you worse off than you were if you were unskilled.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I see what you and Grand Falloon are saying. I think it comes down to me wanting to use dynamic or relative TNs but the system is incompatible (because the dice system is built to improve the chance of success through skill dice over natural talent). TN is meant to be static for a set difficulty rating, unless the approaches is less amenable to success. Being "extra unskilled" is too punitive, as Franwax correctly stated.

My issue then, is that there's no way to adjust the difficulty when players want their character to do something remarkable or extraordinary that they are not trained in (like a technique) or attempting to do something they don't have access to because of their class. Fundamentally, I don't want to limit the imagination or creativity of a player who wants their bushi to attempt to speak to the kami, or a shugenja in desperation trying to tap into their inner chi... or even just attempting something beyond their training, but I'd like the difficulty to match the situation. This is different from (but somewhat related to) what I was originally posting about.

I agree and don't think it's asking too much of a player to account for their training through the use of narrative downtime scenes. It's a matter of not wanting to slow down the flow of the game or limit character progression. Maybe adventure based XP advancement is the way to go because downtimes scenes should be more readily available before the next adventure begins. I like it better than ad hoc exposition, but I'm ok with sensible hand waving (I don't ask too much of my PCs, honestly).

On 1/3/2019 at 2:53 AM, The Grand Falloon said:

Like, if a GM introduced this in a game I was playing, I would quit within a few sessions.

Seriously? When I have issues with my GM or they have issues with my rulings we talk about it.. you know the golden rule of having fun while playing a game in our limited free time...

2 hours ago, T_Kageyasu said:

My issue then, is that there's no way to adjust the difficulty when players want their character to do something remarkable or extraordinary that they are not trained in (like a technique) or attempting to do something they don't have access to because of their class. Fundamentally, I don't want to limit the imagination or creativity of a player who wants their bushi to attempt to speak to the kami, or a shugenja in desperation trying to tap into their inner chi... or even just attempting something beyond their training, but I'd like the difficulty to match the situation. This is different from (but somewhat related to) what I was originally posting about.

Okay....but then - by and large - the game does allow you to do that.

• Most technique effects (or something broadly like them) can be replicated with generic abilities, either taking more actions, higher TN, or a constrained stance requirement. For example:
  • Iaijutsu draw-and-strike - either iaijutsu cut techniques.....or water stance, which lets you use your 'free' action to Prepare, drawing your blade
  • Strife-inflicting warning shot? You don't have pelting hail technique....but fire stance with a kept opportunity is a decent knock-off version
  • An invocation you don't know? Importune invocation increases the TN and requires a material sacrifice, but essentially every shujenga knows every invocation from day one.
• The 'bushi speaking to the kami' - this one I'm hesitant about; theology/survey will let you know if they're disdurbed, but actually speaking to them.....every bushi can; this isn't shujenga exclusive unless you want invocation-level effects. "commune with the spirits" is a TN1 ritual (not invocation) available to every single school in the core book for just 3xp.
• Shujenga trying to tap their chi - my question is "to do what?" because it's the effect you're after which will drive the mechanics you use. Spending void point(s) could easily represent this effect.
• Beyond their training - remember there is no 'unskilled' penalty in the game; anyone can attempt (and with sufficient explosive successes theoretically pass) a check of any TN in any skill, whether they have a rank of it or not.

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Okay  ....but  then - by and large - the game does allow you to do th  at. 

This is true. Opportunity in this edition takes the role of "increasing the TN" as was the case in prior editions. And approaches can be used to have a narrative effect. It's more of an abstraction I probably need to think about and review more closely.

I was just making rhetorical examples of characters attempting something beyond what they are allowed to purchase as techniques. But a more concrete example would be a bushi character praying to a non-mortal entity for immediate intervention (for a spell like effect), something highly improbable and well beyond their training.

And yes, this last point was about techniques, as any skill can be attempted with ring dice.