4 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Nope.

As it explicitly says, Taoist Blade's school ability only applies to kiho that affect unarmed attack profiles.

Death Touch only applies to Attack actions using the punch or kick profiles.

As it stands, the Taoist blade's School ability only applies to 4 kiho: Earthen Fist (Increase Damage profile by Earth Ring), Air Fist (Set Max Range of profile to Air Ring), Flame Fist (Increase Deadliness profile by Fire Ring, damage type is supernatural), and Way of the Edgeless Sword (Set Deadliness and Damage to Martial Arts [Unarmed]+Void, gain Durable and Razor-Edged qualities).

I think there is a RAW vs RAI issue here, I cannot believe the school ability only works for 4 kihos, 3 of them being rank 1 and one rank 5.

39 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

I think there is a RAW vs RAI issue here, I cannot believe the school ability only works for 4 kihos, 3 of them being rank 1 and one rank 5.

I'm pretty certain Taoist's school ability currently being limited to the Elemental Fists and Edgeless is intentional as the school is based on Wuxia/Xanxia sword cultivators. The only RAI/RAW clash I see is in Water Fist because the kiho doesn't actually modify profiles and Water Fist is the Taoist Blade's starting Kiho.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

5 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Death Touch only applies to Attack actions using the punch or kick profiles.

As it stands, the Taoist blade's School ability only applies to 4 kiho: Earthen Fist (Increase Damage profile by Earth Ring), Air Fist (Set Max Range of profile to Air Ring), Flame Fist (Increase Deadliness profile by Fire Ring, damage type is supernatural), and Way of the Edgeless Sword (Set Deadliness and Damage to Martial Arts [Unarmed]+Void, gain Durable and Razor-Edged qualities).

I think there is a RAW vs RAI issue here, I cannot believe the school ability only works for 4 kihos, 3 of them being rank 1 and one rank 5.

Yeah, this sounds like an abuse of shoddy semantics here... Punches and Kicks ARE unarmed profiles, whether the words "unarmed profile" appear in the description or not. It would also apply to Water Fist, too. All those Kihos are restricted to punch and kick (leaving out the only other unarmed profile: bite). There is no other way to make an attack with a punch/kick than to use an unarmed profile.

5 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I'm pretty certain Taoist's school ability currently being limited to the Elemental Fists and Edgeless is intentional as the school is based on Wuxia/Xanxia sword cultivators. The only RAI/RAW clash I see is in Water Fist because the kiho doesn't actually modify profiles and Water Fist is the Taoist Blade's starting Kiho.

Water Fist does affect the unarmed profile, actually.

Quote

While this kihō is active, your Attack checks using the punch or kick unarmed profile ignore an amount of your target’s physical resistance etc.

At least in the pdf version. But anyway, that's beside the point. All punches and kicks use unarmed profiles. Let's not over-complicate things

23 minutes ago, Franwax said:

Punches and Kicks ARE unarmed profiles, whether the words "unarmed profile" appear in the description or not.

I'm not above picking a nit to prove a point and the editing of these books continues to be a disappointment to me, but I really can't bring myself to allow for the possibility that kicks and punches are not (meant to be) unarmed profiles.

I think you guys are looking at it from the wrong end. A punch or kick is certainly an unarmed profile, but, a bite is also an unarmed attack profile - however a kiho which only activates when you punch or kick would not apply to a bite, because a bite is outside the venn diagram. It is an unarmed weapon, but it is not a punch or kick, you follow me? The strict wording of Taoist blade says kihos which "modify your unarmed profile s ", with the pluralization, are applied to a one-handed weapon. I could totally see that only applying to a handful of kiho though I haven't thoroughly double-checked them all to see which work. This avoids the issue of the death touch katana, and the way the curriculum is set up the only ones which are even in school is Water Fist, Earth Fist and Edgeless Sword. It's pretty cool, but I'm pretty sure it's intended to not be swiss-army sword, though certainly anything you can do with an unarmed attack would be better if you can do it with a sword.

6 hours ago, Franwax said:

Yeah, this sounds like an abuse of shoddy semantics here... Punches and Kicks ARE unarmed profiles, whether the words "unarmed profile" appear in the description or not. It would also apply to Water Fist, too. All those Kihos are restricted to punch and kick (leaving out the only other unarmed profile: bite). There is no other way to make an attack with a punch/kick than to use an unarmed profile.

The problem is that there are far simpler ways to write the Taoist Blade's school ability if they wanted it to be able to apply all Kiho that influence Attack actions using the unarmed profiles.

6 hours ago, Franwax said:

Water Fist does affect the unarmed profile, actually.

At least in the pdf version. But anyway, that's beside the point. All punches and kicks use unarmed profiles. Let's not over-complicate things

Read the text of the school ability and read Water Fist. Water Fist doesn't actually directly affect the unarmed profiles, it affects the Attack actions done with the unarmed profiles. It allows Attack actions using the punch or kick "weapons" to ignore 2*Water Ring.

6 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I'm not above picking a nit to prove a point and the editing of these books continues to be a disappointment to me, but I really can't bring myself to allow for the possibility that kicks and punches are not (meant to be) unarmed profiles.

Punches, Kicks and Bites are unarmed profiles and I am not denying that. What is going on is that not all kiho have direct effects any of those profiles and Taoist Blade's school ability is written to only apply to kihos that directly affect the profiles.

It is annoying that Taoist Blades can't apply Breaking Blow to cut boulders apart, the kiho requires succeeding on a Martial Arts [Unarmed] check against the target you want to destroy, and I really think the School Ability should apply to Water Fist, but I can understand why they would want to control which kiho their school ability applies to. Remember that Tattooed Order can only apply their school ability to 6 kiho of their choice while Taoist Blade can potentially apply theirs to any kiho that affects unarmed profiles.

it isn't like "death touch" katana is that strong anyway.

crits on NPC are overrated. they are not super useful.

yes, the rule is worded poorly, as per this game's standard quality. but simply replacing unarmed (kick, bites, punch whatever) by a one handed weapon doesn't break anything.

sure, Taoist Blade is strong, and if you compare it to trashier school ability like Kakita, it becomes almost funny. But at this point, yes you can try to see what fits your definition or not, but allowing everything is NOT broken.

death touch on a katana makes you win duels to first strike ? well, duels are garbage ANYWAY. Doesn't matter if at rank 4 the taoist sword have an I win button for "duels to first strike", many other schools also have broken mechanics for that. And it won't affect first blood duels, especially not at this rank when having +2 deadliness from 2h katana is actually more useful than getting a low severity crit in and letting the opponent spend opportunities on his resist check to screw you up).

I simply think trying to unravel all the spagetthi ruling that this edition does is not as important as simply making it, simple. And nothing is "broken" by allowing taoist Blade to use his 1h weapon instead of a punch/kick/bite etc for Kihos.

edit (tdlr):
-death touch katana is not that good for Skirmishes anyway.
-for duels, lots of other things are broken anyway (and to first blood you might rather prefer the +2 deadliness of 2handed).

We may also get an FAQ clarification later.

22 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The problem is that there are far simpler ways to write the Taoist Blade's school ability if they wanted it to be able to apply all Kiho that influence Attack actions using the unarmed profiles.

don't overestimate the designer's skill when it comes to rule design. its been shown MANY time that they are a bit sloppy.

22 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

It is annoying that Taoist Blades can't apply Breaking Blow to cut boulders apart, the kiho requires succeeding on a Martial Arts [Unarmed] check against the target you want to destroy, and I really think the School Ability should apply to Water Fist, but I can understand why they would want to control which kiho their school ability applies to. Remember that Tattooed Order can only apply their school ability to 6 kiho of their choice while Taoist Blade can potentially apply theirs to any kiho that affects unarmed profiles.

its not like all unarmed kihos benefit that much from increase stats.
and when it doubt, go with the logical choice; works for all.

aside "death touch" any other unarmed kiho is BROKEN when using a sword instead ? I mean, more broken than simply using flame fist for example ?

edit: and death touch isn't broken at all even with a katana.
edit2: and yeah taoist school is uber strong, but balance in this edition is garbage anyway (lets take the old kakita vs mirumoto comparison here). so don't sweat over it and just "buff" your weaker players with gear or what not.

4 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

We may also get an FAQ clarification later.

*tumbleweed*

31 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

edit: and death touch isn't broken at all even with a katana.

Yes it is. A rank 6 Taoist Blade can throw out severity 15+ crits with a TN 3 one opp every other turn due to the school ability auto triggering the burst effect.

6 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Yes it is. A rank 6 Taoist Blade can throw out severity 15+ crits with a TN 3 one opp every other turn due to the school ability auto triggering the burst effect.

"Rank 6" anything is not a functional benchmark. Most games don't last long enough to reach the character development endgame.

9 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Yes it is. A rank 6 Taoist Blade can throw out severity 15+ crits with a TN 3 one opp every other turn due to the school ability auto triggering the burst effect.

rank 6. I assure you plenty of characters are that broken in this game at this point.
you'll never reach that point and if you do, no biggie.

its not like Edgeless Blade isn't better with a Togashi at this point...

but your call, you can nerf it.

imo, I think the design is overall garbage, unbalanced, and very amateur in its execution. for. the. whole. game. (at least when it comes to mechanical details, the concept is good, just butched and untested)
what you allow or not is what you feel like doing, but as the intended rules, I don't think it is more broken than a lot of the other options in this game. At that rank especially.

edit: simply with flaming fist kiho the taoist blade almost equals the kakita school ability. lol.
we have to accept that the balance in this game is irrelevant and that the mechanics are butched.
while I DID nerf (very few) techniques, I did it for lower ranks and stuff that was generally just gamebreaking annoying.
I am very reticent in nerfing anything else and rather buff the weaker players. Otherwise, it is honestly way to much work and would need an almost rewrite of the game.

Since we are in a Togashi thread. @Avatar111 , you seem like a knowledgeable fella. Assuming a choice between Water 2 and Fire 2, which is the superior Togashi? Which Elemental Fist is the best fist (ignoring the answer "whichever is your highest ring")? I'm thinking Earth 3 is the best choice for a Togashi, to do Way of the Earthquake, but what next?

4 minutes ago, Longes said:

Since we are in a Togashi thread. @Avatar111 , you seem like a knowledgeable fella. Assuming a choice between Water 2 and Fire 2, which is the superior Togashi? Which Elemental Fist is the best fist (ignoring the answer "whichever is your highest ring")? I'm thinking Earth 3 is the best choice for a Togashi, to do Way of the Earthquake, but what next?

don't know on top of my head.
but water is probably the stronger ring for a togashi monk I think. get some composure and mobility and self healing and social.
You don't have access to HPS kata.. fire is a bit irrelevant probably.

rough answer though. I really don't know more about it unless I check in detail.

edit: and it depends how you want to roleplay the character too.

4 minutes ago, Longes said:

"Rank 6" anything is not a functional benchmark. Most games don't last long enough to reach the character development endgame.

This game, unlike many which are not designed to function a max level, is designed to be played at rank 6 and beyond and it is important to keep in mind that. Pretty much every iconic "Samurai fantasy" character you can think of would be Rank 6 and much of the game cognitive dissonance is caused by players and GMs trying to mimic these characters at Rank 1.

4 minutes ago, Longes said:

Since we are in a Togashi thread. @Avatar111 , you seem like a knowledgeable fella. Assuming a choice between Water 2 and Fire 2, which is the superior Togashi? Which Elemental Fist is the best fist (ignoring the answer "whichever is your highest ring")? I'm thinking Earth 3 is the best choice for a Togashi, to do Way of the Earthquake, but what next?

Flame Fist ends up being superior to Water Fist in most cases due to changing Damage type to Supernatural meaning that Flame gets most of the benefit of ignoring Physical Resist just like Water Fist.

8 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

This game, unlike many which are not designed to function a max level, is designed to be played at rank 6 and beyond and it is important to keep in mind that. Pretty much every iconic "Samurai fantasy" character you can think of would be Rank 6 and much of the game cognitive dissonance is caused by players and GMs trying to mimic these characters at Rank 1.

at Rank 6 everybody one shot everybody in one way or another. don't over sweat it. death touch on a katana is not more broken than a LOT of other things (especially shugenja). but if you really want to nerf it, go for it.

edit: i really don't see how death touch on a katana 1h is more broken than many other things at rank 6.
ffs, the nemuranai example Omeka kakita blade is like deadliness 12... use that with Heartpiercing Strike with melee 5 and fire 5 and kakita rank 6. ain't too shabby.
with Kakita rank 6 ability too.

I mean... I just don't see how specifically death touch on katana 1h breaks the game more than all the other broken stuff.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

I mean... I just don't see how specifically death touch on katana 1h breaks the game more than all the other broken stuff.

A single instance isn't really the problem, the problem is more on how repeatable it is. The Kakita Duelist Rank 6 is a once per scene and Tattooed Order can once per scene combo Edgless+Death Touch into a 20+ severity crit but otherwise monks need to wait 3 rounds (Activate Death Touch, Attack, activate alternate kiho, repeat) between Death Touches while a Taoist Blade would be able to perform Severity 15+ Death Touch crits every other turn.

38 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

A single instance isn't really the problem, the problem is more on how repeatable it is. The Kakita Duelist Rank 6 is a once per scene and Tattooed Order can once per scene combo Edgless+Death Touch into a 20+ severity crit but otherwise monks need to wait 3 rounds (Activate Death Touch, Attack, activate alternate kiho, repeat) between Death Touches while a Taoist Blade would be able to perform Severity 15+ Death Touch crits every other turn.

At this point.. I mean, your Oni still explode in one hit.

And heartpiercing strike with a kakita is every turn. If he's got a souped up katana on top of that..

I just don't think it is worth nerfing taoist blade at this point.

I am actually much more annoyed that taoist blade is a better kakita all the way, even at low ranks, and that duels are mechanically unfun, and that many of the game rules are tedious or abusable than annoyed at some hyper powerful endgame ability.

Though, it isn't even an arguing anymore, it just is. If you want to nerf it, and your player accepts it. And you plan on still play this game at rank 4+... go for it. For early ranks though, just make it simple and accept everything, its just ok (or check my houserule to deal with a very few problematic low rank stuff). And if a player plays a weaker school, buff him with gear or other "abilities" to make him good at what he wants to do so he can have as much moments as stronger schools.

10 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

This game, unlike many which are not designed to function a max level, is designed to be played at rank 6 and beyond and it is important to keep in mind that. Pretty much every iconic "Samurai fantasy" character you can think of would be Rank 6 and much of the game cognitive dissonance is caused by players and GMs trying to mimic these characters at Rank 1.

Flame Fist ends up being superior to Water Fist in most cases due to changing Damage type to Supernatural meaning that Flame gets most of the benefit of ignoring Physical Resist just like Water Fist.

Are any of them superior to the Earth Fist or Way of the Earthquake though?

1 hour ago, Longes said:

Are any of them superior to the Earth Fist or Way of the Earthquake though?

Might not be optimal, but I have a weakness for The Body is an Anvil. It is crazy strong for a rank 1 Kiho; but mitigated by a rather stiff TN at low ranks. But once you can reliably pull it off, with the burst effect to boot, it is a wonder of passive aggression.

11 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

at Rank 6 everybody one shot everybody in one way or another. don't over sweat it. death touch on a katana is not more broken than a LOT of other things (especially shugenja). but if you really want to nerf it, go for it. 

Agreed. Pretty much every rank 6 ability I can think of is pretty much ridiculous when viewed from the foothills of a 'normal' game.

10 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

A single instance isn't really the problem, the problem is more on how repeatable it is. The Kakita Duelist Rank 6 is a once per scene and Tattooed Order can once per scene combo Edgless+Death Touch into a 20+ severity crit but otherwise monks need to wait 3 rounds (Activate Death Touch, Attack, activate alternate kiho, repeat) between Death Touches while a Taoist Blade would be able to perform Severity 15+ Death Touch crits every other turn.

Agreed. But I would suggest that if you're finding yourself needing Strike With No Thought multiple times per scene you're doing something wrong; it's the ultimate expression of the 'One Cut' philosophy and after you've done it your opponent is really not supposed to be there anymore (or at least, is supposed to be missing some pretty important extremities).

52 minutes ago, Longes said:

Are any of them superior to the Earth Fist or Way of the Earthquake though?

I don't have access to the new school rules, but assuming it's just a variation on "you may use this kiho with a blade instead of your unarmed profile":

Earthen Fist:

"While this kihō is active, treat the base damage of your unarmed punch and kick profiles (see page 237) as being increased by your Earth Ring. While this kihō is active, increase your physical resistance by 1."

Air Fist:

"While this kihō is active, treat the maximum range of your punch and kick unarmed weapon profiles (see page 237) as equal to your Air Ring."

Fire Fist:

"While this kihō is active, treat the deadliness of your unarmed punch and kick profiles (see page 237) as increased by your Fire Ring and treat their damage type as supernatural."

Water Fist:

"While this kihō is active, your Attack checks using the punch or kick unarmed profile ignore an amount of your target’s physical resistance up to two times your Water Ring.

While this kihō is active, you may spend 1 Void point to perform an unarmed attack with a punch or kick indirectly through any solid surface your target is touching. As long as you and your target are both in contact with the same solid surface (such as a wall, floor, or body of water) at a range between 0 and a number equal to your Water Ring of each other, the target is considered to be in range for any Attack action you perform with your punch or kick unarmed attack profile."

Obviously, the driving question is "what's your best ring?" because they're pretty much powered off them. I agree Earthen Fist is probably the best 'general purpose' kiho because whilst others are better in specific situations, there are relatively few situations where Earthen Fist doesn't help in some way.

Earthen Fist is a good 'general purpose' kiho - since you'll be in earth stance, any critical damage should only be coming in after you're incapacitated, so you're into race-to-incapacitation and extra damage and extra physical resistance makes you better. All right, only 1 point, but every little helps.

Air Fist is....pretty pointless unless you have an air ring of at least 3, and frankly not that big a deal even then. If you've got Air 4, suddenly it's going to be quite annoying to use with a sword as a deadliness 7 Katana is a heck of a sight scarier to get hit with from across the battlefield than a deadliness 3 arrow. Plus, Air is one of the best stances a high-rank ranged combatant as you're at TN+2 to be hit, and with you can make that TN+4 to be hit. Essentially, it's a tactics thing; if you can use it at range 4, and you can reliably engage and stay at range 4, it's unbelievably good, even compared to dedicated archers. How well you can do that determines how good the kiho is, since unlike all the others it doesn't actually make you hit harder, it just lets you hit when you otherwise couldn't.

Fire Fist versus Earthen Fist....depends on the target's physical resistance. If your Earth Ring > their physical resistance, you're causing more extra damage than they're no longer blocking. Extra deadliness is great but only matters where high severity criticals matter. Essentially, if you're facing a mundane adversary in plated armour, fire fist is much, much better. A mob of ashigaru? Earthen fist.

Water Fist's damage boost ability is generally a weaker version of Fire Fist. No matter what the target's resistace is, ignoring it entirely is better than ignoring part of it. Where it's useful is if a target has a high physical and supernatural resistance (oni?) and as a void-point-eating 'knock-off' of Air Fist - the latter is better for hitting with your melee attacks at range, but often you only get the chance for one swings before things close to proper melee range anyway, so it costing a void point isn't too big a deal.

Overall Taoist sword is one of the stronger "fighter" in the game.

Being able to have an 7dmg katana straight off the bat, combined with earth stance and high stats, and an armor eventually and striking as earth, is just boring (I just find earth stance soooo boring in design). But it is extremely powerful (and boring) in non-supernatural fights.

But Taoist sword will get different options too!

No way most average bushi can compete with him.

Hida, hiruma, mirumoto probably the only three on par.

Anyway, I'm beyond thinking this game make any kind of design sense. You look at schools like Kakita and Moto, and some others and it is so weird how absurdely weak they are compared to some other options.

As a GM I just quickly buff them so they don't feel subpar. While it feels like a bandaid buff because the stronger schools won't have anything anytime soon... That is how it is.

@Magnus Grendel I was talking about the Togashi, but the conclusions seem valid still. Only that Fire is worse than Earth on a Togashi due to lower deadliness of the fists.