Hi,
Just wondering how intrigues play out in the system. I find the Shuji system really neat but my players tend to rush for the goal line.
If I have a goal of 10 momentum, they will most likely try to push through before the opposition gets to 10 instead of Scheming against their rivals. It feels like a waste of time to use Shuji instead of building successes.
Maybe Im doing it wrong? Should I award less Momentum for persuading and more for creatively handling their courtly foes?
Essentially, the system is just extended tasks. How it works, however, varies by level of RP vs G in the group.
Key factors
If the GM and players get into the ICVN elements, and the GM modifies the individual rolls for relevance and depth of narration, it sings along happily
If neither goes ICVN, it can be a boring mechanical roll-fest.
Hum, I see what you mean. I should give greater detail to the NPCs as to give players some ideas as to who and how they try to convince them. Having a player use Shuji offensively to undermine an NPC could gather some Momentum even if it isn't the «Persuade» action. Using my own to undermine their efforts as well. I could give more colour to the NPCs as they have different approaches.
Momentum Points scale bad for successes - you get one point for meeting the TN, and then one point for every two bonus successes. Usually it's more efficient to either keep conservatively and minimize Strife received from it, or dedicate extra kept dice to Opportunities - and thus Shuji.
You can always include additional information outside of momentum based goals that would be (a) helpful in the matter at hand, (b) helpful on a tangential plotline or (c) foreshadowing of future developments. The discovery of such info might make some of the shuji’s worthwhile. The shuji’s also become more worthwhile if you meet the same NPCs over and over again and someone finally thinks to ask....why is Yuki always trying to do XYZ?
40 minutes ago, Void Crane said:You can always include additional information outside of momentum based goals that would be (a) helpful in the matter at hand, (b) helpful on a tangential plotline or (c) foreshadowing of future developments. The discovery of such info might make some of the shuji’s worthwhile. The shuji’s also become more worthwhile if you meet the same NPCs over and over again and someone finally thinks to ask....why is Yuki always trying to do XYZ?
That's a good idea, there's definitely something to do along those lines. It seems a bit more work to plan the court encounters but it seems nice to have all parties interact with Shuji. I guess you gotta use it to open up some roleplaying options.
Ex: If that Ikoma is using the Shuji to appear more honnorable, he might be trying to stay above the issue and not going in the mud with the others. Then, having such an honnorable samouraï on your side can give added value to your argument, or momentum. He might not be interested in the actual issue, but might weight in on behalf of the PCs (or their rivals) in exchange of some political favor.
One thing that could encourage more indirect tactics than just going straight for momentum points (I.e. convince the key decision maker first while ignoring the opposition) could be giving the opposition a head start. Not only does it make sense in some cases - PC may find themselves in the position of challengers, going against more established forces - but by making it clear that they will not be able to reach the threshold before the other parties by piling up successes alone, it encourages them to sabotage the opposition first. A Compromised or Dazed adversary won’t be able to keep up as effectively, and if they unmask, this could make their case lose momentum... so fanning the flames and prey on the weak can work quite well.
You know, as I think about this there are two other things you can do to stimulate more interesting intrigue conflicts.
(1) You can give the PCs different social goals. The PCs could be, but don’t have to be, at cross purposes. For example a crane or a scorpion member could be given an additional goal of creating a report or brief on who was there and what they were up to. Any clan could be given a goal of finding a weakness or leverage against a specific NPC. A duelist could havecthe job if provoking someone....
(2) You can also give some (self motivated) PCs rather vague or irrelevant orders. Job one may just be finding out what’s going on. For example PCs are sent to a court where an important general is supposed to show up and then influence the deployment of his forces by achieving XYZ. But they get there and ... the general is a no show. Some NPCs seem to have agendas that oppose your interests. Some seem irrelevant. Some seem favorable. Your PCs can chose an agenda to build momentum, but is it the right thing to do when everything is up in the air? PCs need to figure out what’s going on, find out if there is foul play anywhere & keep options open for when they are ready to “strike.”
On 12/27/2018 at 11:42 AM, WHW said:Momentum Points scale bad for successes - you get one point for meeting the TN, and then one point for every two bonus successes. Usually it's more efficient to either keep conservatively and minimize Strife received from it, or dedicate extra kept dice to Opportunities - and thus Shuji.
That presumes sufficient time for more attempts. And that time may not be present...
2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:That presumes sufficient time for more attempts. And that time may not be present...
I think perception of "how much time we still have" should be an interesting factor in court. Some ideas:
- Someone mentioned giving opponents a headstart. This could be represented by opponents having different different momentum objectives. Someone who already has favor will need less efforts to win the point. This difference in momentum objective would be an interesting information to gather, and would then stress the need to sabotage opponents, because rushing to the end line might be a lost battle.
- Just like in combat, there should be ways (narratively and using dice rolls) to know how well you are doing. In battle, you see strikes connect (or get barely avoided with fatigue), critical injuries happens, and combatants go down. In the same way, courtiers will need to get a pulse of the room through narrative clues and guesswork, as well as through rolls. This information might allow them to relax a bit with the rushing, if they can see they are in the lead, and consider other possibilities. (Like in battle, you might start to consider keeping the last opponent alive for questioning, etc.)
- Speaking of possibilities, when you're in the lead, this is where side objectives come up. Sure you might win the main battle, but maybe that's only a "yes, but" win. Achieving side objectives might get you closer to the unmitigated "YES" win, but spending time on them is a balancing act, or you will end up in the "no, but" situation, having achieved multiple side objectives but lost the main one. Or maybe the main objective is so out of reach, that suddenly side objectives are the only win you can even achieve...
- Another idea is to split the overall debate over a longer period of time. Important or long debates might happen over multiple periods of time (which may be different scenes, or not), and each time you may be able to achieve only so much momentum, but have more than enough time for other stuff. You might split your 10 momentum in 3 parts, where the first two parts have maximum momentum gained of 2 or 3 each (and last part has no max). Therefore, once you have achieved max for an early part, players have to thinks of other goals or sabotage, to spend the leftover time. For example, you start by meeting with an herald and have to convince them that they should allow you to the audience chamber. Whatever you do to convince them will have repercussions, since the herald will report to the lord. Then the audience might spawn two phases, with a recess in between. Between each phase, courtiers will have time to gather information about their opponents and hear what they're doing to win favor or sabotage you. The most cunning courtiers might even attempt to win extra momentum (obtaining or forcing a short private audience in the side rooms, etc.). In any case, the beginning of the encounter will stress the use of cunning and shuji and side objectives, while the last part will still have a satisfactory "rush to victory".
4 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:- Speaking of possibilities, when you're in the lead, this is where side objectives come up. Sure you might win the main battle, but maybe that's only a "yes, but" win. Achieving side objectives might get you closer to the unmitigated "YES" win, but spending time on them is a balancing act, or you will end up in the "no, but" situation, having achieved multiple side objectives but lost the main one. Or maybe the main objective is so out of reach, that suddenly side objectives are the only win you can even achieve...
This. Giving different players seperate but complementary objectives lets you win-but-lose or lose-but-win, which makes for more interesting gameplay.
Taking an intrigue from our table, the players were one side of a debate - a city governor was assembling a punitive expedition to hunt down and destroy a bunch of pirates.
Different objectives 'in play' around the room included:
By having multiple simultaneous objectives, even 'winning' the PCs ended up with problems - one of them got command, but stuck with a particularly irritable matsu as their 2ic..in command of the others...
Edited by Magnus Grendel21 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:I think perception of "how much time we still have" should be an interesting factor in court. Some ideas:
1 - Just like in combat, there should be ways (narratively and using dice rolls) to know how well you are doing. In battle, you see strikes connect (or get barely avoided with fatigue), critical injuries happens, and combatants go down. In the same way, courtiers will need to get a pulse of the room through narrative clues and guesswork, as well as through rolls. This information might allow them to relax a bit with the rushing, if they can see they are in the lead, and consider other possibilities. (Like in battle, you might start to consider keeping the last opponent alive for questioning, etc.)
2 - Another idea is to split the overall debate over a longer period of time. Important or long debates might happen over multiple periods of time (which may be different scenes, or not), and each time you may be able to achieve only so much momentum, but have more than enough time for other stuff. You might split your 10 momentum in 3 parts, where the first two parts have maximum momentum gained of 2 or 3 each (and last part has no max). Therefore, once you have achieved max for an early part, players have to thinks of other goals or sabotage, to spend the leftover time. For example, you start by meeting with an herald and have to convince them that they should allow you to the audience chamber. Whatever you do to convince them will have repercussions, since the herald will report to the lord. Then the audience might spawn two phases, with a recess in between. Between each phase, courtiers will have time to gather information about their opponents and hear what they're doing to win favor or sabotage you. The most cunning courtiers might even attempt to win extra momentum (obtaining or forcing a short private audience in the side rooms, etc.). In any case, the beginning of the encounter will stress the use of cunning and shuji and side objectives, while the last part will still have a satisfactory "rush to victory".
Neat,
1- It could be used with Opportunities that let you notice some details about the scene (usually the 2-cost Opportunities).
2- If you have non-politically savvy PCs, they could offer a service or quest to the lord in order to build momentum.