12 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

If FFG has any intention of running the game for any meaningful period of time, they will encounter more and more new, unhappy players who can not in any way get hold of 1.0 ships that are necessary to compete in extended because they are not produced anymore.

edit: and before I forget to state the obvious: unhappy players means fewer players

So FFG's luck then that the Rebel YT1300 is not valued competitive right now. Because that one is INCLUDED in hyperspace, but to play it you need a conversion set and a 1.0 Falcon.

If it were really good, tough luck for new players even in Hyperspace - unhappy players....

16 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

So FFG's luck then that the Rebel YT1300 is not valued competitive right now. Because that one is INCLUDED in hyperspace, but to play it you need a conversion set and a 1.0 Falcon.

If it were really good, tough luck for new players even in Hyperspace - unhappy players....

Oh right, because one ship is the same as 40. And because the rebel YT1300 is a meta powerhouse that's necessary to compete. And because nuance is a thing of the past. Got it.

7 hours ago, Phelan Boots said:

First, it’s not so far off, as it is now.

Second, we should abandon all hope of a balanced game? (Which was the whole point of 2.0 reset and variable costing via the app.) In favor of what, X-Wing: A New Hope and All The Best Scum Stuff? No thanks. FFG made a commitment to the player base to balance the game, not 10% of the game.

I can only applaud that. Because that’s what Hyperspace is. A lazy company refusing to further balance Extended.

They will also ruin Extended while balancing hyperspace. Ships have different power levels in both metas, and when they balance ships and upgrades for Hyperspace, they will get a worse Extended balance.

And to get back on topic, THAT is where i have a real problem with Hyperspace. Because it destroys the happy fairytale that both formats will coexist.

Extended will suffer from this MTG copy paste dumpster of odd rotations that Hyperspace will be, and that’s why they won’t change my mind on it while going this road with it.

WHAT they could do to make me happy with Hyperspace, is NOT DO ROTATIONS OR BANLISTS, but make it a true introductory format that ends when all old ships have been rereleased so that in the end Hyperspace=Extended. While this process is going on, they’d probably need different point costs for ships in both formats until they all get united in the end.

I get Hyperspace from the standpoint that you have to make a format for new players (even if there are hardly any as far as i csn observe in my vicinity) so that they can have access to all the played ships. At the moment you can still easily get all old expansions for cheap and just play with conversion kits. But there might be a timr when this is not possible anymore. So therefore Hyperspace is necessary AS A STOPGAP MEASURE.

To be clear, i have already started cutting my expemses on X-Wing as soon as i started to see this coming, some of my coplayers start wandering off already from X-Wing because of this mess, and if they start ruining Extended because of Hyperspace balance, i will be done with this too.

I was thinking about getting Resistance to put together a hyperspace list. They will be top dawgs in that format. On second thought, I'm not going to. The fact that the Resistance upgrade box doesn't upgrade my Rebel A-wings still doesn't sit well with me. (Does someone want to 'trade' some greenbacks for my Rebel A-wings?) Everyone gonna fly Nien Numb & I tend to fly pilots others aren't flying. To me, list building is less interesting in hyperspace merely because there are less options & more restraints. It clearly won't be balanced better than extended, so no advantage gained.

I've been flying Imperials, but with the ships I have, there's essentially only 1 competitive list I can field in Hyperspace. And it's not a very interesting list. Less fun to fly than my Imperial extended lists. I can't even field a Scum list cause I have no interest in purchasing a Scum falcon.

I have zero hope that FFG will suddenly become good at adjusting points costs to balance anything. The pending points adjustments are likely going to be cringeworthy bad. A faster changing meta is more interesting, but balance will be unattainable. I'd like to see hyperspace expanded to include MOST of what's available in extended. This would effectively be a compromise & in this situation, it would work out well this way.

14 hours ago, Phelan Boots said:

Second, we should abandon all hope of a balanced game?

Yes, if you insist that every ship and every upgrade in the game be playable at the same time.

Do you want to balance this equation:

Or this one:

A limited pool of ships and cards makes TOURNAMENT BASED GAME BALANCE an actual possibility, instead of a house of cards that gets more tipsy with every Wave.

Quote

FFG made a commitment to the player base to balance the game, not 10% of the game.

So, when has a tournament-driven player ever played with more than 10% of the available ships if they wanted to get to Worlds?

And even 1.0 was actually pretty well balanced still, if you cut the egregious errors out of the pool. If everyone had been willing to lose 10% of their collection back then, we might not be talking about losing 90% now.

And Extended will always let you play 100% of your collection.

Lastly, THE GAME has never been about your collection of toys or the Star Wars movies, it is about getting people to buy more ships so they can play in Official Play Tournaments for prizes and prestige.

Good points all. There is one tool for balance I think they really missed an opportunity with. All cards should have color coded dots/marks/whatever that FFG can use to restrict access to truly offensive combinations that break the game. In the Points PDF or APP, they can update it regularly and change it around for each format. Is it a perfect fix? No, but it narrows the gap between balance and broken more than just points adjustments alone. Will it ever make everyone happy? No, someone will always be unhappy with something.

14 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Oh right, because one ship is the same as 40. And because the rebel YT1300 is a meta powerhouse that's necessary to compete. And because nuance is a thing of the past. Got it.

Keeping to facts is obviously a thing of the past. Because it is 1 out of 21 Hyperspace legal, and more importantly, 1 out of 4, thus 25% in the rebel faction.

Also:

15 hours ago, Managarmr said:

So FFG's luck then that the Rebel YT1300 is not valued competitive right now. Because that one is INCLUDED in hyperspace, but to play it you need a conversion set and a 1.0 Falcon.

If it were really good, tough luck for new players even in Hyperspace - unhappy players....

Bold so you can find it easier.

not=negation

""In logic, negation, also called the logical complement, is an operation that takes a proposition P to another proposition "not P".

If it were=Subjunctive mood

"Subjunctive forms of verbs are typically used to express various states of unreality"

Reading comprehension is obviously a thing of the past.

10 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yes, if you insist that every ship and every upgrade in the game be playable at the same time.

Do you want to balance this equation:

Or this one:

A limited pool of ships and cards makes TOURNAMENT BASED GAME BALANCE an actual possibility, instead of a house of cards that gets more tipsy with every Wave.

So, when has a tournament-driven player ever played with more than 10% of the available ships if they wanted to get to Worlds?

And even 1.0 was actually pretty well balanced still, if you cut the egregious errors out of the pool. If everyone had been willing to lose 10% of their collection back then, we might not be talking about losing 90% now.

And Extended will always let you play 100% of your collection.

Lastly, THE GAME has never been about your collection of toys or the Star Wars movies, it is about getting people to buy more ships so they can play in Official Play Tournaments for prizes and prestige.

Just a question, for the first equation... the problem issued a Fourier's transformation for getting what gain on the information of the system? The Hamiltonian has an Heisenberg invariant form, so it is obvious che every value that the physical system could take are fixed at initial time and the system status is a mixed status of several eigenvalue. That said to affirm that every language whatever complex has a meaning and could be reduced in plain words accessible to everyone. So exist the chance to make xwing 2.0 without implement any ban list. You get it working around victory conditions (scenarios) and making the building of a single list autowinning in all match impossible. Being creative it is a good solution. Being lazy and mutilating the game it is not.

33 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Keeping to facts is obviously a thing of the past. Because it is 1 out of 21 Hyperspace legal, and more importantly, 1 out of 4, thus 25% in the rebel faction.

It is also 1 out of 40 ships that are only available by conversion kit, the actually relevant number here for the bad point you tried to make.

At least my ignore list has a new member now.

I love the hyperspace format, the smaller ship pool sets a different list building challenge and removes some of the most degenerate combos from the game.

But ultimately it is an optional format. You don’t have to play it unless you want to play the competitive track, and if you are on that, you probably bought four of everything anyway

14 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Lastly, THE GAME has never been about your collection of toys or the Star Wars movies, it is about getting people to buy more ships so they can play in Official Play Tournaments for prizes and prestige. 

First, there are tournament players that are huge Star Wars Nerds (both Legends and Canon) and still want to be able to play all their ships in a competitive environment.

Second, what they are doing with hyperspace is probably accomplishing the exact opposite of „getting people to buy more ships“.

Whether you care or not, whether you like it or not. This is splitting the community quite heavily. While some accept this change, a good number do not, and will buy less, or worse (for everyone in the community, actually), turn their back on X-Wing. And at a much faster rate than it was the case even at the end of 1.0. New players are also rare as unicorns... so if it is about selling ships (which it is, on that you are right) Hyperspace is the wrong way.

52 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

But ultimately it is an optional format. You don’t have to play it unless you want to play the competitive track, and if you are on that, you probably bought four of everything anyway

This is what I worry about as a TO and (ahem) community leader.

If people decide they don't have to play Hyperspace and don't want to play Hyperspace, they'll play Warhammer, Magic, Agricola, chess, Crusader Kings II or (the force forbid) football instead. Then, some players will decide they don't want to play Extended, don't have to play Extended, and just pass on the event unless it's Hyperspace. Suddenly we don't have enough players for either format, and the whole thing just dies.

4 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Second, what they are doing with hyperspace is probably accomplishing the exact opposite of „getting people to buy more ships“.

Yeah... no.

4 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Whether you care or not, whether you like it or not. This is splitting the community quite heavily. 

Maybe you want it to be so you can feel justified in your endless ranting against hyperspace.

5 minutes ago, ForceM said:

While some accept this change, a good number do not, and will buy less, or worse (for everyone in the community, actually), turn their back on X-Wing.

If the availability and official support of 2 formats at tournaments, including the flexibility on store champ level to choose(!), is enough to turn them away then the chances are high that their presence was not exactly beneficial. Or short: good riddance!

12 minutes ago, ForceM said:

New players are also rare as unicorns... so if it is about selling ships (which it is, on that you are right) Hyperspace is the wrong way.

Which way would be correct? Requiring new players to hunt down ships on the secondary market? That works for now if shortsighted, but what about in a year from now? Or two? Do you remember the shortage of Miranda?

The re-releases are fast, but they are not fast enough to re-release 40 ships in new molds plus four new factions.

What you are doing is motivated reasoning at its finest.

It's okay to have good cards and bad cards. That's not the point of balancing.

1 hour ago, Okapi said:

This is what I worry about as a TO and (ahem) community leader.

If people decide they don't have to play Hyperspace and don't want to play Hyperspace, they'll play Warhammer, Magic, Agricola, chess, Crusader Kings II or (the force forbid) football instead. Then, some players will decide they don't want to play Extended, don't have to play Extended, and just pass on the event unless it's Hyperspace. Suddenly we don't have enough players for either format, and the whole thing just dies.

If people don't want to play X-Wing, they won't play X-Wing, yeah. Nobody* is going to stop playing a game because some other format they don't want to play exists, unless they didn't actually want to play in the first place.

If somebody prefers hyperspace, they've put up with something they didn't actually want all this time.

*is what I normally believe, but there is a non-zero number of people in this thread claiming they're going to do exactly that, so who knows.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

It's okay to have good cards and bad cards. That's not the point of balancing.

If people don't want to play X-Wing, they won't play X-Wing, yeah. Nobody* is going to stop playing a game because some other format they don't want to play exists, unless they didn't actually want to play in the first place.

If somebody prefers hyperspace, they've put up with something they didn't actually want all this time.

*is what I normally believe, but there is a non-zero number of people in this thread claiming they're going to do exactly that, so who knows.

I don't know what your local scene is, or what games you've been into before, but here we regularly see people ditch a game completely because the format they prefer is unpopular. I've personally quit Magic a couple of times because of it, and I know plenty of Warhammer players who have too.

I don't think the veterans who are looking forward to Hyperspace (myself included) will necessesarily ditch Extended, because, as you say, they've already been playing what's basically Extended since the beginning, but new players might see it differently. I also know several players who have flatly stated they will not play a limited format.

Basically, for the Hyperspace & Extended split to work, it'll have to result in a net gain of players. There is a real risk it'll scare off more people than it attracts. Now I'm not saying that this will be the case, or that I even believe it's going to be the case, just that it is a possibility, and that anyone wanting to foster a local community should be aware of this possibilty, and be prepared to adapt to the needs and wants of local players, as well as be vocal about it in a way that FFG might notice.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yeah... no.

Maybe you want it to be so you can feel justified in your endless ranting against hyperspace.

If the availability and official support of 2 formats at tournaments, including the flexibility on store champ level to choose(!), is enough to turn them away then the chances are high that their presence was not exactly beneficial. Or short: good riddance!

Which way would be correct? Requiring new players to hunt down ships on the secondary market? That works for now if shortsighted, but what about in a year from now? Or two? Do you remember the shortage of Miranda?

The re-releases are fast, but they are not fast enough to re-release 40 ships in new molds plus four new factions.

What you are doing is motivated reasoning at its finest.

You can of course ignore all those that are unhappy here, me included, but even if everyone would shut up even here on the forum, it wouldn’t change that Hyperspace is highly controversial in the community.

X-Wing as a game is shrinking as a consequence of this. I hope not to the point that it has to go out of business.

If you read what i wrote earlier, you’d know that i think Hyperspace, if it is necessary, it is as a stopgap measure as long as they rereleased ships so that in the end Hyperspace=Extended. What it should not be is a rotational format.

And what you, and FFG at the moment do is ignoring a good portion of the community that doesn’t like where this is going. Even if it was a minority, nothing good can come from this, game and businesswise...

5 minutes ago, Okapi said:

I don't know what your local scene is, or what games you've been into before, but here we regularly see people ditch a game completely because the format they prefer is unpopular. I've personally quit Magic a couple of times because of it, and I know plenty of Warhammer players who have too.

That's my exact point - for this to be true, it means that those players are already playing a game they don't want to play.

If I want to play where neither of us have uniques or run thematic lists, and you want to play a serious game with tournament meta lists, one of us is going to not get what we want - and it's probably me, since without limitations the default is the widest set. Official formats are just a codified resolution mechanic, but the conflict isn't new.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

That's my exact point - for this to be true, it means that those players are already playing a game they don't want to play.

If I want to play where neither of us have uniques or run thematic lists, and you want to play a serious game with tournament meta lists, one of us is going to not get what we want - and it's probably me, since without limitations the default is the widest set. Official formats are just a codified resolution mechanic, but the conflict isn't new.

Veterans wanting Extended only have been playing a game they do want to play, and if a significant portion of local events (or all of them) are Hyperspace, we will see a drop in attendance. Likewise, if new players only attend Hyperspace events, the Extended events will also see a drop in attendance as players drop off (which they will, because sometimes people move, get a new job, start a family, find a new game or just lose interest).

Obviously this isn't new. We've players lose interest over theme conflicts ("you're running R2-D2 on someone that isn't Luke? What's wrong with you?"), but those have been relatively rare. This is a huge change, more akin to the problems the Magic community faced when when Modern arrived and Extended got rearranged and eventually dropped. In larger communities in larger cities, it's probably going to be fine, even if the total number of players drop somewhat. In more fragile communities, this is something that needs to be handled extremely carefully.

1 hour ago, ForceM said:

X-Wing as a game is shrinking as a consequence of this. I hope not to the point that it has to go out of business.

I assume you have a source for this and actual numbers, not just your extremely biased gut feeling?

1 hour ago, ForceM said:

If you read what i wrote earlier, you’d know that i think Hyperspace, if it is necessary, it is as a stopgap measure as long as they rereleased ships so that in the end Hyperspace=Extended. What it should not be is a rotational format.

So... a version that would be identical to what we have now? Because you can't give the game time until all factions are released before you have to bemoan what is only a possibility of your imagination?

Not really bothered by Hyperspace. Give me my Huge Ship conversion kit!

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

First, there are tournament players that are huge Star Wars Nerds (both Legends and Canon) and still want to be able to play all their ships in a competitive environment.

Sadly, that is entirely irrelevant to this game that is supposed to be about SW. The last time this game actually pushed my SW Geek button was the release of the EU bounty hunter ships.

If this game was actually appealing to nerd-dom, we would not even be talking about formats of play, because people would be playing the game "Because Star Wars."

Lastly, tournament players have always "wanted to play all their ships in a competitive environment." The last time that probably happened was Wave 2 of 1st Edition. After that, there were clear winners and losers for which ships to bring to a tournament, and despite complaints about "my fave is useless" and no one stopped going to tournaments.

Quote

This is splitting the community quite heavily. While some accept this change, a good number do not, and will buy less, or worse (for everyone in the community, actually), turn their back on X-Wing.

A similar thing was said about adding a 3rd faction and releasing a 2nd Edition. . .

The outrage!! The player loss!! Game death!!!

It just didn't happen.

IMHO, these are the two options:

A: I want to play all my ships in an imbalanced tournament setting.

B: I want a balanced tournament setting with some of my ships.

There is no Utopian "all ships + balanced play." If there was, it should have existed when 2.0 dropped. However, within days there were clear winners and losers again. Now, you can claim that FFG rushed 2.0, or dropped the ball, or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that the one brief moment, when everything could have been perfectly aligned, has already come and gone.

22 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Do you want to balance...this one:

Doesn't the equals sign imply that it's already balanced?

10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

IMHO, these are the two options:

A: I want to play all my ships in an imbalanced tournament setting.

B: I want a balanced tournament setting with some of my ships.

What makes you think B is achievable for the same guys for which A isn't?

4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

What makes you think B is achievable for the same guys for which A isn't?

Because it is inherently simpler to balance fewer components I guess?

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Doesn't the equals sign imply that it's already balanced?

Actually no.

t = 1 😂😂😂