2 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Thanks for the in-depth analysis, looks like I was wrong Subjectively, as a Scum player I always felt the faction was struggling apart from a few 'star' ships (Jm5k, Nym, Assajj) and it seems I remembered the data with a hefty dose of confirmation bias.

Scum started in wave 6 with Z95, Scyk, Starviper, Hwk, Firespray, IG2000.

Of these only Brobots gained broader reputation. Imperial Firespray were already out of the meta, Scum versions neither really catched on. Starvipers as well as Scyks were too expensive in comparison to what they brought and what other factions had, in part even Z95. Z95s N'Dru got traction much much later as guidance chips came (wave 8), Bugzappers and Deadman had some traction, but those lists suffered from Mov bleed. Hwks got traction later, but struggled until the real powerhouses helped them survive.

Wave 7 brought the Kihraxz (pretty much an X wing in a time were non-Biggs X already struggled a lot) and the YV. Very short surge of Thug lyfe as TLT was in that wave, TLT terror began with rebel Miranda. Kihraxz never got wider traction, partly due to that. Still mostly Brobots.

Wave 8 brought the G1A, which was competitively pretty much stillborn. With Zuckuss crew though (e.g. party buss), and JM5K, **** broke loose. Remember though, Miranda and Palp (wave 6.5) Aces brokenness was abound as well, X-wing began to derail fast. Mindlink did catch on first later, the powercreep Fang with its dial from wave 9 being the catalysator.

Though the first Scum waves had a ton of ships, most struggled to get a foot in, as they were balanced or even on the weak side.

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 12:16 PM, kris40k said:

Like Hanger Bay events and the Coruscant Invitationals?

Never is a strong word.

Neither of those were widely supported at the local game-store level (at least in my city) ... so yes, basically never, for most players.

FFG sold Conversion Kits, thus building assumption that old collections will be playable - otherwise I would never step into 2nd edition. As soon as FFG removes Extended format they will be dead for many faithful customers who invested a lot in this game. Hyperspace is boring, Empire is a joke, there are not many ships. Lists are bland and repetitive. If you want rotation crawl back into mtg hellhole. It was not and still isn't part of X-Wing.

2 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

FFG sold Conversion Kits, thus building assumption that old collections will be playable - otherwise I would never step into 2nd edition. As soon as FFG removes Extended format they will be dead for many faithful customers who invested a lot in this game. Hyperspace is boring, Empire is a joke, there are not many ships. Lists are bland and repetitive. If you want rotation crawl back into mtg hellhole. It was not and still isn't part of X-Wing.

The key word there is 'assumption'.

You made that assumption despite MANY MANY MANY people trying to explain otherwise. We did try.

And Hyperspace is awesome, but it's different to Extended and you spend a lot less time trying to craft 'the perfect list' and a lot more time trying to fly your imperfect list in a way that hides its weaknesses and exposes those of the opponents list. It's almost like it's some kind of strategic miniatures game about positioning instead of a squadbuilding puzzle game. That may not be to your taste, but I remind you that the name above the door isn't "X-Wing: The Squadbuilding Game".

4 minutes ago, SOTL said:

The key word there is 'assumption'.

You made that assumption despite MANY MANY MANY people trying to explain otherwise. We did try.

And Hyperspace is awesome, but it's different to Extended and you spend a lot less time trying to craft 'the perfect list' and a lot more time trying to fly your imperfect list in a way that hides its weaknesses and exposes those of the opponents list. It's almost like it's some kind of strategic miniatures game about positioning instead of a squadbuilding puzzle game. That may not be to your taste, but I remind you that the name above the door isn't "X-Wing: The Squadbuilding Game".

Or you try to fly your imperfect list and it gets alphaed into oblivion by high ps double modified proton torps.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

The key word there is 'assumption'.

By your "logic" customer who buys product shouldn't assume that it will be working and be perfectly fine. Oh, he expects that he will have some value in bought product - travesty!

2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

MANY MANY MANY people trying to explain otherwise. We did try.

I don't care what some of those "people" tried to explain. Only official actions and words of FFG counts

4 minutes ago, SOTL said:

And Hyperspace is awesome, but it's different to Extended and you spend a lot less time trying to craft 'the perfect list' and a lot more time trying to fly your imperfect list in a way that hides its weaknesses and exposes those of the opponents list. It's almost like it's some kind of strategic miniatures game about positioning instead of a squadbuilding puzzle game.

If you think that 2.0 is only about squadbuilding puzzle game then I guess there is no point in talking with you. I would like to remind you is that the WHOLE point of 2nd edition was to make flying relevant again - and developers mostly succeed in this regard.

Also don't delude yourself - in any format (also in your beloved "Hyperspace") sooner or later optimal and most cost effective lists will emerge. The only difference is that in Hyperspace meta will be more bland with less potential for "rouge lists". Look at Empire in Hyperspace - it is big joke - and compare its list building potential with one of Hyperspace Scum. You got to be kidding if you think that Hyperspace is this Holy Grail of X-Wing. It is not. It is literally the worst thing that could happen in X-Wing.

13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Or you try to fly your imperfect list and it gets alphaed into oblivion by high ps double modified proton torps.

See, that sounds horrible and everyone will be telling you how oppressive it is. And then you try and build that high PS double modified Proton Torp squad to see what the boogeyman looks like and you go 'wow... is that all they can afford? That's not so bad and it's got some pretty massive holes I can drive a bus through'.

I've not seen a Hyperspace squad that feels 'finished' yet, they've all got holes - the closest I've seen is probably Han/Luke.

13 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Also don't delude yourself - in any format (also in your beloved "Hyperspace") sooner or later optimal and most cost effective lists will emerge. The only difference is that in Hyperspace meta will be more bland with less potential for "rouge lists". Look at Empire in Hyperspace - it is big joke - and compare its list building potential with one of Hyperspace Scum. You got to be kidding if you think that Hyperspace is this Holy Grail of X-Wing. It is not. It is literally the worst thing that could happen in X-Wing.

It's rogue. It's only ever been rogue. Rogue is a class in DnD. It's a superhero in the X-Men. It's a squadron in X-Wing for god's sake. It's not hard to remember.

Rouge is makeup.

45 minutes ago, SOTL said:

you spend a lot less time trying to craft 'the perfect list' and a lot more time trying to fly your imperfect list in a way that hides its weaknesses and exposes those of the opponents list.

So much this!

It took me 20 games to get the hang of awings, and I haven't lost the next 7.

Right now there is so much more work happening in perfecting approaches and decisions instead of lists. The former has to be earned, the latter could be copied.

Remember Nathan Eide pulling off amazing games with Corran when NOBODY else could? That is now much more if a requirement, but this time for everyone.

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So much this!

It took me 20 games to get the hang of awings, and I haven't lost the next 7.

Right now there is so much more work happening in perfecting approaches and decisions instead of lists. The former has to be earned, the latter could be copied.

Remember Nathan Eide pulling off amazing games with Corran when NOBODY else could? That is now much more if a requirement, but this time for everyone.

Exactly this, and it's going to be a culture shock for a lot of people who are used to not having to work too hard at that because they put all the effort in at listbuilding. To steal Sony's slogan, Hyperspace is for the players.

It is different. It's not just Extended with less ships, it's genuinely different.

And it's important to acknowledge this, btw. Because if you do things like @thespaceinvader is doing and assuming that your squad is going to have to stand up to some all-powerful opponent then nothing you ever see in your listbuilder is going to look good enough and you'll get discouraged and depressed about the format.

The one proviso, I think, is that the compressed points values on a chassis is doing a lot of damage in Hyperspace and it's a HUGELY I5-I6 format. Much more so than in Extended. That's the big gaping hole in Hyperspace at the moment, for me. Build you list assuming you'll see a ton of I5-6 and you'll be fine so long as you can work out how to fly it, even if it doesn't feel 'finished' by the standards you're currently used to.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

Exactly this, and it's going to be a culture shock for a lot of people who are used to not having to work too hard at that because they put all the effort in at listbuilding. To steal Sony's slogan, Hyperspace is for the players.

It is different. It's not just Extended with less ships, it's genuinely different.

You do realise FFG introduced APPLICATION specifically for providing good balance and fast way of changing costs of ships that are too good or cheap? You don't need Hyperspace for that. Also Hyperpace is exactly the same game of X-Wing as Extended, only more bland, with less number of ships and laughably one dimensional Empire.

4 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

You do realise FFG introduced APPLICATION specifically for providing good balance and fast way of changing costs of ships that are too good or cheap? You don't need Hyperspace for that. Also Hyperpace is exactly the same game of X-Wing as Extended, only more bland, with less number of ships and laughably one dimensional Empire.

Ok. You're the boss, boss!

I don't know why people keep banging on about hyperspace and point balancing as if they were related.

HYPERSPACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCING THE POWER OF INDIVIDUAL COMPONENTS, THAT'S WHAT POINT UPDATES ARE FOR.

It is about giving all factions a comparable amount of options, so that the new factions will see tournament play and making it more accessible for new players.

16 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

You do realise FFG introduced APPLICATION specifically for providing good balance and fast way of changing costs of ships that are too good or cheap? You don't need Hyperspace for that. Also Hyperpace is exactly the same game of X-Wing as Extended, only more bland, with less number of ships and laughably one dimensional Empire.

Well, we know who doesn't want to give up their phantoms and punishers.

19 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

You do realise FFG introduced APPLICATION specifically for providing good balance and fast way of changing costs of ships that are too good or cheap? You don't need Hyperspace for that. Also Hyperpace is exactly the same game of X-Wing as Extended, only more bland, with less number of ships and laughably one dimensional Empire.

And that is precisely what you don't understand.

1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

If you think that 2.0 is only about squadbuilding puzzle game then I guess there is no point in talking with you. I would like to remind you is that the WHOLE point of 2nd edition was to make flying relevant again - and developers mostly succeed in this regard.

Do you agree that extended is more about squadbuilding than hyperspace? And less than 1.0 was?

1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

Also don't delude yourself - in any format (also in your beloved "Hyperspace") sooner or later optimal and most cost effective lists will emerge. The only difference is that in Hyperspace meta will be more bland with less potential for "rouge lists".

What you so casually dismiss as rogue list is again the point.

There will be plenty of 'rogue lists' in hyperspacr because the list itself matters less than it did before, and the *way* it's used and played matters much more.

That means we will see more lists that go againt conventional wisdom, because the power differences between the most cost effective lists and rogue lists are now less relevant than the differences between their usage.

I understand that you don't believe this, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. What would have to happen for you to change your mind?

And if it was true: would you enjoy that more or less than a game where list building is important and copying an amazing list is very helpful?

3 minutes ago, Duskwalker said:

I don't know why people keep banging on about hyperspace and point balancing as if they were related.

HYPERSPACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCING THE POWER OF INDIVIDUAL COMPONENTS, THAT'S WHAT POINT UPDATES ARE FOR.

It is about giving all factions a comparable amount of options, so that the new factions will see tournament play and making it more accessible for new players.

Well, ultimately it's about selling ships.

Hyperspace format is about selling ships by giving all the new factions a comparable amount of options to the old factions players have already bought, to showcase the new game design direction for X-Wing, and by making it more accessible for new players.

Extended format is about selling ships by providing older existing players with a place to enjoy their huge existing collections and keeping them engaged with the game, so that in future they might also buy some of the new releases as well.

Everything about OP comes back to selling ships and both formats have an important role to play in sustaining future sales of X-Wing.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

I understand that you don't believe this, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. What would have to happen for you to change your mind?

We're 12 pages in now and clearly the answer to the question in the title of the thread is "No".

Just now, SOTL said:

We're 12 pages in now and clearly the answer to the question in the title of the thread is "No".

It's a different question though Not if but how, already implying that there's an if.

If you have an opinion where no scenario would change it then that opinion is pointless in any discussion. Partially why my ignorelist is now on 33 people, but you know...

The thing that puts me completely off Hyperspace is that the ships I want to fly are not legal for that format. So I'm just going to skip Hyperspace completely. I didn't play competitive X-Wing under 1.0 and I was considering it under 2.0 but Hyperspace format completely killed my interest in it. So for 2.0 I'm sticking to playing with my friends in my Kitchen, with the ships I want to use.

1 minute ago, UberMunchkin said:

I didn't play competitive X-Wing under 1.0 and I was considering it under 2.0 but Hyperspace format completely killed my interest in it.

Not playing hyperspace because you don't like the available ships at the moment is completely understandable!

You are aware that the IMO best tournaments, store champs and system opens, are extended, right?

And obviously 'skip hyperspace completely' is meant as '...until ships I like are available' I guess?

1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

By your "logic" customer who buys product shouldn't assume that it will be working and be perfectly fine. Oh, he expects that he will have some value in bought product - travesty!

Ahem.

EPIC.

42 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

You do realise FFG introduced APPLICATION specifically for providing good balance and fast way of changing costs of ships that are too good or cheap? You don't need Hyperspace for that. Also Hyperpace is exactly the same game of X-Wing as Extended, only more bland, with less number of ships and laughably one dimensional Empire.

Standard is exactly the same game of X-Wing as Epic, only more bland, with less number of ships and laughably one dimensional strategy.

Do you just click on threads, type Epic, then leave?

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Do you just click on threads, type Epic, then leave?

Basically. Because:

A. My version of the game is dead, so I don't have much else to talk about.

and

B. So when people say "I bought stuff and I expect (nay, demand) to be able to use it in Hyperspace," I would just like to point out that there is entire collection of players that has been COMPLETELY snubbed by FFG despite the fact that they bought stuff, too.

Pretty much.

21 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Basically. Because:

A. My version of the game is dead, so I don't have much else to talk about.

and

B. So when people say "I bought stuff and I expect (nay, demand) to be able to use it in Hyperspace," I would just like to point out that there is entire collection of players that has been COMPLETELY snubbed by FFG despite the fact that they bought stuff, too.

Epic has always been an alternate format. The whole "Epic" icon and separation from the standard game. It's a shame that Epic has not been supported, but it's not like Epic is a standard ship release that's been banned.