22 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

That is - for now - wrong.

Store champs are the type of tournament that most people will play, and they can be either Extended or Hyperspace.

Regionals and Nationals are Hyperspace, SystemOpens Extended.

Hyperspace is the focus for OP. It was said in their interview, when they rejected both 2nd edition and extended format. Forgot which podcast reported this but OP asked who thought the competitive format is going to be 2nd edition and who thought it will be Extended only to tell everyone they are wrong and then they announced Hyperspace as the new format. So there you go

Extended is Casual

Hyperspace is Competitive

2nd edition has been replaced by Hyperspace

Casual (prebuild threat cards) is used after the app goes offline or for those who don't have access to internet.

I'm starting to get excited for Hyperspace!

I am primarily a Scum player but for Hyperspace I think I'll change to another faction (either Rebels or Imperials... probably rebels because I only own half a rebel conversion kit)

Will give me an opportunity to play some old ships that have been collecting dust on my shelves.

Imperials looks a bit less appealing from my perspective because i only own tie-fighters (8) and tie-advanced's (4)... sure I could borrow ships or buy the imperials expansion but that would require more spending and like I said I have some ships that are just collecting dust (does this sound familiar to anyone out there?)

Im temped to stay with Scum and go with Boba/Fenn and a mining guild tie but i think thats going to be more for my extended faction.

Once the Lambda Shuttle rotates into Hyperspace I may dust off my imperials stuff... im sorta waiting to fly multiple lambda's in the same squad

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 10:05 AM, GreenDragoon said:

Then you and @Darth Meanieexpect that system opens will change the format to hyperspace?

It will remain, sort of. Overall support and number of events I expect to decline.

I agree with Meenie on this "The main reason I would argue that we will wind up with One Format To Rule Them All is that FFG doesn't seem to have the wherewithal to keep multiple balls in the air at the same time. "

If they did, we would have seen alternative tourney formats in 1.0, missions, etc. which they never did, and I doubt they will try to do.

I don't see a future where Hyperspace is everything, that's unreasonable doom-mongering.

I see a future where Hyperspace grows to be 50%, but it'll take a while to get there. But if we do have to choose one format, I'd definitely choose Hyperspace.

16 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The problem is FFG already marketed and sold conversion kits. They made a big deal out of being able to play your 1.0 ships in 2.0. Now they ban the vast majority of them with hyperspace. They marketed (propaganda) in order to sell their conversion kits and keep existing players. Dropping the ban hammer now is going to lose a lot of players as we are seeing in these threads. It creates mistrust in the community except for die hard fantatics that have addiction problems.

I would agree with you if FFG didn't sell massive conversion kits like they did and instead just sold conversion kits per ship and only did when those ships would be cycled into the new format. If they would have done this and been honest up front, than I think that would have kept more players than lost. However, FFG attempted to milk the player base as much as possible. This of course is causing the back lash and most likely x-wing won't be able to survive this. We know x-wing dropped of top 5 list of miniatures sold. Its only going to get worse.

tbh I would rather buy a massive conversion kit at 40$ than a whole bunch of single ship conversion kits at 10$. I'm not sure I agree with the whole lie to the player base to increase conversion kit sales,...in this particular instance.

I mean @Da_Brown_Bomber you do you, but switching _from_ Scum _to_ Imperials for Hyperspace seems nutty. Like 180 from what makes sense. Scum is inarguably stronger and has more viable pieces/ lists than Imperials.

I’m an Imperial primary player and most likely will not be flying them for any hyperspace events. Maybe Striker/ Reapers. Otherwise I’ll fly my Rebels, as the only Hyperspace legal Scum ship I have is the Firespray.

28 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I don't see a future where Hyperspace is everything, that's unreasonable doom-mongering.

I see a future where Hyperspace grows to be 50%, but it'll take a while to get there. But if we do have to choose one format, I'd definitely choose Hyperspace.

Isn't Hyperspace already way more than 50% of the number of Events? Not counting Store Championships since those are store's choice, but events where it has been defined by FFG.

PS: I'd also choose Hyperspace if I had to choose one format. Extended will likely be a 3 faction format in practice, due to the huge advantage in ship number and options for the 3 1.0 factions. Scum never recovered through the entire run of 1.0 from being late to the party. Even when it was dominating, it never had any depth.

24 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Even when it was dominating, it never had any depth. 

Which faction did though?

Defenders and Palpaces?

Dengaroo and Paratanni?

FinalForm and GhostFenn?

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Which faction did though?

Defenders and Palpaces?

Dengaroo and Paratanni?

FinalForm and GhostFenn?

That's not what I meant.

Beyond what was great and top of the meta at a given time, Rebels and Imperials had a pretty solid 'second line' of good ships and lists. This has allowed them to endure various nerfs without huge issues.

Scum never had that. The overwhelming majority of Scum roster was ****. The faction rose solely on the back of 2-3 ships and cards and, when those were nerfed, it went back down like a bag of bricks, simply because there wasn't anything else good you could play. Scum had great ships, and crap ships, with very little in between.

1 hour ago, Gibbilo said:

If they did, we would have seen alternative tourney formats in 1.0, missions, etc. which they never did, and I doubt they will try to do.

Like Hanger Bay events and the Coruscant Invitationals?

Never is a strong word.

In any case, I would like to see the game balanced around Extended, Extended official tournaments, and the Hyperspace events as an option such as the difference between WMH Masters and Champions format events.

Hyperspace should be what the Coruscant Invitational was the last few years, a specialized format option for competitive players to get out of their comfort zone with, but at more events. Extended should still be the primary focus of game development and balancing.

50 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Isn't Hyperspace already way more than 50% of the number of Events? Not counting Store Championships since those are store's choice, but events where it has been defined by FFG.

Seasonal kits are store choice, but the prizes are extended.

Store champs are store choice, but the prizes are hyperspace (since they're tied to the stuff in the wave).

Regionals are hyperspace.

System Opens are one of each.

52 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Isn't Hyperspace already way more than 50% of the number of Events? Not counting Store Championships since those are store's choice, but events where it has been defined by FFG.

If you don't count all the tournaments that aren't Hyperspace then yes, Hyperspace is already more than 50% of tournaments.

o_O

Just now, SOTL said:

If you don't count all the tournaments that aren't Hyperspace then yes, Hyperspace is already more than 50% of tournaments.

o_O

Tournaments that have to be Hyperspace only: everything regional and above

Tournaments that have to be Extended only : none AFAIK

Tournaments that have to be both Extended and Hyperspace: System Opens

Everything else is store's choice.

So where are you getting less than 50% Hyperspace again?

Store choice will predominantly be Extended. And if it's NOT Extended then that's democracy in action and you'll just have to deal with it as it's what the players want.

5 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Store choice will predominantly be Extended. And if it's NOT Extended then that's democracy in action and you'll just have to deal with it as it's what the players want.

Itvs still misleading to count them toward either Extended or Hyperspace as we don't know for sure what they will be.

I think they will predominantly be Hyperspace, because store owners want to sell new stuff and attract new players, And if it's NOT Hyperspace then that's democracy in action and you'll just have to deal with it as it's what the players want.

17 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Tournaments that have to be both Extended and Hyperspace: System Opens

That's not really correct, they are Extended.

Saying otherwise is like claiming that 1.0 System Opens was both 6rounds+cut and just 6rounds. Of course that was the case, but "the" System Open was the cut. In the same sense, "the" Sytem Open will be extended.

42 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

That's not what I meant.

Beyond what was great and top of the meta at a given time, Rebels and Imperials had a pretty solid 'second line' of good ships and lists. This has allowed them to endure various nerfs without huge issues.

Scum never had that. The overwhelming majority of Scum roster was ****. The faction rose solely on the back of 2-3 ships and cards and, when those were nerfed, it went back down like a bag of bricks, simply because there wasn't anything else good you could play. Scum had great ships, and crap ships, with very little in between.

I disagree, an example for Wave 11:

That did not improve for the last 3 waves (or arguably it did wave 14 when nobody cared anymore)

21 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's not really correct, they are Extended.

Saying otherwise is like claiming that 1.0 System Opens was both 6rounds+cut and just 6rounds. Of course that was the case, but "the" System Open was the cut. In the same sense, "the" Sytem Open will be extended.

I disagree, an example for Wave 11:

That did not improve for the last 3 waves (or arguably it did wave 14 when nobody cared anymore)

I agree with you, in the theoretical sense, System Opens are Extended, because the main event is Extended. In the practical sense however, answering a question like 'what formats will you be playing at the System Open', the answer is most likely 'both Extended and Hyperspace' for most players. How many people do you think will pay for the full ticket, play in the main event and then not join Hyperspace on day 2?

Regarding the tier 1.5 squad argument, what that graphic is not capturing is how much the tier 1.5 squads had in common with the tier 1 squads, aka the number of good ships a faction had access to. This is what gives a faction nerf resistance (or lack of it). On phone right now and it's not letting me pull meta-wing data for a specific period, but, unless I'm misremembering, Scum always had less pilots in top 20 than Imperials or Rebels.

15 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I agree with you, in the theoretical sense, System Opens are Extended, because the main event is Extended. In the practical sense however, answering a question like 'what formats will you be playing at the System Open', the answer is most likely 'both Extended and Hyperspace' for most players. How many people do you think will pay for the full ticket, play in the main event and then not join Hyperspace on day 2?

I get what you're saying. But there is also Hangarbay, which can be decided by the organizer: "Event organizers will specify the game modes available for their Hangar Bay Pods. They can use any game mode supported by the X-Wing squad builder."

So you can play extended all weekend long and not once touch Hyperspace. The inverse is not true.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I get what you're saying. But there is also Hangarbay, which can be decided by the organizer: "Event organizers will specify the game modes available for their Hangar Bay Pods. They can use any game mode supported by the X-Wing squad builder."

So you can play extended all weekend long and not once touch Hyperspace. The inverse is not true.

If we are including Hangar Bays, why is the inverse not true though?

Why can't you just play Hyperspace Hangar Bays on day 1 and then do the Hyperspace side event on day 2?

21 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Regarding the tier 1.5 squad argument, what that graphic is not capturing is how much the tier 1.5 squads had in common with the tier 1 squads, aka the number of good ships a faction had access to. This is what gives a faction nerf resistance (or lack of it). On phone right now and it's not letting me pull meta-wing data for a specific period, but, unless I'm misremembering, Scum always had less pilots in top 20 than Imperials or Rebels.

forgot the second part...

We would have to dig in quite hard. It is for example correct that a huge amount of ships Wave 8-11, almost 1,5 years, was Jumpmasters (3000!). Defenders are at 2100 and X-wings at 1600. The top20 shows 5 scum and 7 rebels. The numbers can't be just summed up because a squad can have more than one. If going to the archetypes after cut, there are now just 4 for rebels, 6 imperial and 10 scum. These 10 scum archetypes used 9 different ships. The 4 rebel archetypes used 7 different ships. On interpretation is that scum ships were more versatile in their possibility to be combined. Another that rebels flailed and didn't find something that worked. Or we can look at the squad sizes and see that the average scum squad is below 3 ships, while the rebel lists have an average of 4.78. That could also point to the archetype function being broken because it consists of only 18 lists, while scum has 1465 lists in cuts. Or the game was so broken.

Going to archetypes for swiss has the same 10 scum and 4 rebel archetypes. The 4 rebel archetypes were in 919 lists, and the 10 scum archetypes formed 2409 lists. Scum still has 7 ships in all those lists, rebels has just 5 ships. Combining the cut and swiss data, I think you can't really say that - for wave 8-11 - Scum always had less pilots in top20 than imperials or rebels.

Btw, imperials. 6 archetypes, 9 different ships, 1100 lists. They just did much better in swiss. But saying they had more depth is still a stretch.

Just now, LordBlades said:

If we are including Hangar Bays, why is the inverse not true though?

Why can't you just play Hyperspace Hangar Bays on day 1 and then do the Hyperspace side event on day 2?

I didn't know that day 1 also has Hangar Bay?

1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

Itvs still misleading to count them toward either Extended or Hyperspace as we don't know for sure what they will be.

I think they will predominantly be Hyperspace, because store owners want to sell new stuff and attract new players, And if it's NOT Hyperspace then that's democracy in action and you'll just have to deal with it as it's what the players want.

But... I'm expecting it to not be Hyperspace so... what's your point again? I'm pretty sure you don't have one, and haven't for several pages.

15 minutes ago, SOTL said:

But... I'm expecting it to not be Hyperspace so... what's your point again? I'm pretty sure you don't have one, and haven't for several pages.

In relation to your post my point is that currently there is more OP support for Hyperspace than Extended, at least in regard to the number of tournaments that have to run a certain format.

21 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I didn't know that day 1 also has Hangar Bay?

Thanks for the in-depth analysis, looks like I was wrong Subjectively, as a Scum player I always felt the faction was struggling apart from a few 'star' ships (Jm5k, Nym, Assajj) and it seems I remembered the data with a hefty dose of confirmation bias.

Regarding Hangar Bays, the System Open I was in last year started Hangar Bay after main event round 2, as soon as some guys had 2 losses and dropped. Not 100% sure, but I think this is quite common.

So, where do Quick Build events figure in to this equation..?

9 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Regarding Hangar Bays, the System Open I was in last year started Hangar Bay after main event round 2, as soon as some guys had 2 losses and dropped. Not 100% sure, but I think this is quite common.

IIRC the qualification format last year meant you needed to win 2 of your first 3 games or you would be automatically knocked out. After the first 3 games, the remaining players would play 3 more with 5 wins required to reach day 2.

So yeah, players who lost their first 2 games moved straight to Hangar Bay (or the bar).

Not sure if qualification follows the same for at this year or not, but Hangar Bays are already announced with prize support

25 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Thanks for the in-depth analysis, looks like I was wrong Subjectively, as a Scum player I always felt the faction was struggling apart from a few 'star' ships (Jm5k, Nym, Assajj) and it seems I remembered the data with a hefty dose of confirmation bias.

I want to emphasize that metawing has to be enjoyed with caution. I only have my own analysis for the regionals starting in January 2018, post nerf. For there your memory is quite accurate:

Or at least, only 20% of all squads were scum, 375 squads using 987 ships. And for those, only 16 ships were used. Lancers, Scurrg, Jm5k, Starviper together made up 552 of those 987 ships. Then there's a gap and Fangs are the 5th with 67 ships.

So while your memory is not correct for all of scum, it is correct for the very last bit of competitive X-wing. It's just that right before that period, Scum had arguably the most depth of all factions.